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20min chapter
RWH022: Multi-billionaire Masterclass w/ Ray Dalio
We Study Billionaires - The Investor’s Podcast Network
Navigating Life's Phases and Principles
This chapter explores the major life phases of dependence, independence, and interdependence, emphasizing personal milestones and the challenges faced during these transitions. The discussion highlights the importance of developing individual principles, fostering community engagement, and reflecting on personal values to achieve fulfillment. Additionally, it addresses the transformative experience of leadership transition and the joy found in seeing the next generation thrive.
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Episode notes
Speaker 2
And we had a great discussion of it last year. So I'll include in our show notes, a link to the last podcast where we talked about that book, which is, it's a fantastically helpful book. But I wanted to turn while I have you to the last section of this book, the journal, which is obviously about the arc of life, the three phases of life as you see them. Can you talk about why it's important for us to understand these phases and also to know where we are in them? Most
Speaker 1
people's lives are, there's a life arc. And most people's lives transpire in like ways that you could see over and over again, you know? And so I break it down. It seems to me like there are three big phases in life. The first phase is you're dependent on others and you're learning, usually your parents. Then you go out on your own. Others become dependent on you when you're working. You're trying to be successful. And almost every year, practically, not every year, but in neighborhoods of years, you're this age, you get married at this age, or you get your life partner maybe at that age. This age, you have kids. When you have kids, your parents are now entering their third phase. And so, there are those things that we all know. So, I put in that life arc, a checklist. What happens in the first, when do you first have a romance? When do you first? And you can see the list and there's a checklist. And when you go through the checklist, you can check off how many of the things happened to you wherever, and you can see right where you are. And because by looking at that checklist, you could also see what's coming next. And you could see, by and large, not only what's coming next for you, but if you look at it over, let's say, what are the things I can expect over the next 10 years as likely? And then you could do that for your loved ones. What does that mean for your parents? Where will they be over the next 10 years? What about your children? And what about your friends? And what are these phases in your life like? And how should you approach that? So by having them in that perspective, you can step back and you can put that in perspective and you can learn and think about, okay, there's the next 10 years. Like I'm 73. Okay. Okay. Where will I be in 10 years? And what will I be like? I mean, I kind of have a picture of what that's going to be like. And that's true at every age. And where will my kids or my grandkids be? And what do I want that to be like at that time? And so that's true for everyone. And so the beginning part of the book, you know, we look at what's your nature and what are the paths and so on, and how do you get there? And then at the end of the book, it's not a book, you know, it's a journal, but it's got these parts in it. The journal, for those who have never seen it. It's a paper journal that you can write in, but it has QR codes. So you can go into it. You can put your information on the computer and it gathers and accumulates this information, also shows you videos and things. But it's really just meant to help you reflect on your principles. And so in that life arc, it's very important to know where you are. It's quite unsettling
Speaker 2
as well. I mean, I found it. I was talking to my wife over dinner about it last night, going through it. And you're like, oh, God, I'm 54. I guess I'm approaching the final stages of the second phase. And you start to think about it and you're like, okay, so, but also you say, for example, that the second phase, the part that I've been in, tends to be one of the unhappier times of life. And you think about how much you're worrying about your kids and whether they'll be okay and all the struggles, balancing work and family and stuff. Exactly. It's kind of helpful, right? You start to see, oh, it's not just me. It's been a difficult period. It's everyone practically. Like
Speaker 1
you say, if you look, there's part of it that tracks happiness. I studied, okay, what are the happiest and how does happiness change? I won't take everybody through that, but, you know, in the early years and then you get into the, just out of university or whatever you're graduating, you know, those are very happy years. In that middle that you're referring to, when there's work-life balance, and you're trying to juggle a lot, and you're trying to be successful, and you're struggling with yourself, and you're struggling with your family, and also, there can be times of disenchantment. The marriage isn't going exactly like you dreamed or the job. Okay, I'm not the superstar because life is tough. And you go and you encounter that middle part of your life. And those things are known, you know, they happen. They're normal almost than you expected. And also, there are principles for how do you deal with each one of those better? And then you come. And then I watch people have a difficult transition from one phase to the next phase. Because, you know, let's say you go from the second phase, and whether we call it retirement or something, and all of a sudden, you in a habit, you're addicted. Am I important? Do I matter? What is my status? All of these things that people then get, and they just don't yet know what that new phase is and become comfortable and enjoy that new phase. I've mentored a lot of people who've gone, very, very successful people who've gone, okay, from being successful to then that new phase, and then understanding how to find joy, because the happiest phase is really that phase which really almost comes on typically around 60 or after 60. It actually, surprisingly, ironically, is actually the happiest phase in all of life, and this is across cultures typically, because, okay, you don't have the work-life balance any minute. Your parents are gone. Your children are on their own. You have a freedom. You're not trying to prove yourself. And are all the joys of all of those types of freedom if you approach it well. And so people understanding these things and understanding, you know, principles for dealing with them are really beneficial.
Speaker 2
You have kind of a brutal line in the book where you say that in phase three, you can save a life without obligations and are free to die.
Speaker 1
Free to live and free to die. And that actually was a sentence out of Joseph Campbell wrote A Hero's Journey, which was A Hero of a Thousand Faiths, very interesting. And that's what it really is. You're free to live and then free to die. And what free to die means is the relief of knowing that you can die and it'll be okay for your next generation and so on. You know, sometimes we feel like we have to take care of everything, you know, and you go beyond it, and there could be a relief and an understanding of, you know, that phase. It's like the serenity prayer, I think, you know. Again, you know, God give me the serenity to accept that which I can't control, and so on. You're there, you are,
Speaker 2
do the best you can, and
Speaker 1
then just go with what reality's like.
Speaker 2
Acceptance seems very central because there's a sentence towards the end of the book where you say about the third phase, this final phase of life, the key to this time going well is accepting the life cycle, including the end. In this phase, wisdom and spirituality tend to be at higher levels than at other times in life and generally are good to have. And it made me wonder, are you finding yourself becoming more spiritual with age, or are you still just looking at everything and thinking, we're all just machines within machines, and there's nothing more? I don't
Speaker 1
think that the, yes, I'm becoming more spiritual as it goes, because you rise, you sort of see things in perspective, you learn more. But the mechanics is not the inconsistent with the spirituality. Spirituality to me means a connectedness with the whole. Essentially, the rising above yourself and realizing that you're part of this whole and that beautiful acceptance. But that whole works in kind of a mechanical way. Some things we know about, some things we don't know about, but it is that, okay, it's like the life arc and it's like all of those things. There are still cause-effect relationships. So, when I say machine, I just mean that there are causes
Speaker 2
to
Speaker 1
everything that happens. It's
Speaker 2
interesting. I saw something that you wrote recently on Twitter where you shared some principles from Martin Luther King. And one of them was, an individual has not started living fully until they can rise above the narrow confines of individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of humanity. And another, you said, every person must decide at some point whether they will walk in the light of creative altruism or in the darkness of destructive selfishness. And it seemed to me that a big part of your trajectory has been becoming increasingly focused on serving others altruistically now that you're in this different phase of life. Is that fair to say that that's kind of been your personal arc to a great degree? Yes,
Speaker 1
to a significant degree. And I learned more and more about it. But also, work and meaningful relationships have always been important to me. But, you know, in the game and so on, but the relationships part is important. And I've always believed that win-win relationships are better than lose-lose relationships. And that love is a great power that if, when I mean love, maybe it's not what we mean, but in other words, the caring of each other and the caring of the whole creates so much better. It works so much better than the selfishness, which means it's almost a destructive force. And so, of course, as I get older, I see that so much more. And then I see this, like what we're in now, everybody has practically these opinions that they think they're right, they want to fight for. And I see the destructiveness. Who knows who's right and can we tolerate each other more and pull it together? But I can see that destruction. So yes, I think it's more also apparent at this time, but it is, yeah, as you go above it, where you want to be? What is the place you go to? What do you like? What feels good? People are nice with each other. They're civil with each other. They care about each other. Those are the environments. They have less stress. They're more efficient. I think it's pretty obvious in terms of that element of what you want. It
Speaker 2
was really interesting to me, Ray, that in the book, some of the language you use to talk about your principles, you said at one point that your principles become like your self-made religion that you're living every day. And you said that as you write down these principles, it helps you to ascend to higher and higher levels. And I was really interested in that idea that they've almost become like your version of the Ten Commandments or the 613 commandments in the Old Testament, where you've gone through life figuring out, this is kind of my operating manual. It's interesting to me, this kind of connection with religion.
Speaker 1
Well, what is a religion? I mean, a religion really doesn't have to be most religions don't have the notion of the same thing as, you know, the afterlife. And most religions are a way of living life. What are your principles for living life? And you could take those in prepackaged forms. So you could say, you could take them in prepackaged, here they come and I'm going to adopt the principles, or you can choose them yourself. And I think that today, why not choose them yourself? Why not pick out what your real principles are? Because it's like your religion. How are you going to live it? Or is it going to be, you know, something that it's indoctrinated and you just follow and believe? So, so that's all religions are really is the principles of how you're going to interact. That's really what they are. So when you write down, what are your true principles and why you're coming to, okay, how do you really want to live your life? People can go into a religion and they go there and they say, I'm religious, and then they come and they live doing different things and so on. Anyway, choose your religion, choose your principles, make up your own. I
Speaker 2
actually have been doing this over the last few days. And it's a really thought-provoking process where you actually force yourself to think about what do I actually believe? And so, for example, I found myself, you know, I have lots of post-its on my wall in my study that whenever I hear something or learn something that I think is profound, I put it down. And so there's one, for example, that says, it's from the Old Testament, where it says, when I fall, I shall arise, which is a reminder really just of your emphasis on determination, on just continuing to plug away, regardless of how many times you fail and mess up. Another one I thought was really striking, there's something from David Hawkins, who I always think about a lot, a remarkable writer who said, be kind to everything and everyone, including oneself all the time with no exception. So I was wondering if there are things you've come across where, let's say your family, your kids, or your wife, or your colleagues have sort of shared with you principles that they've come up with that have had a profound impact on you, where this process of other people learning from your principles, provoking them to write their own, has then kind of come back to you and you thought, yeah, yeah, that's true. I want to incorporate that one.
Speaker 1
Well, there are, of course, many. I think that the principles I see that exist, that are working, many people have discovered. They're not, you know, you might think of it as something and then you think, ah, I discovered it. But many people have discovered almost all good principles. Not always. But I mean,
Speaker 2
yeah. You make the important point, though, that it has to suit you. I think that's one of the things that comes through the journal. It's not enough just to take on somebody
Speaker 1
else's. It's got to truly suit your view of the world. That's right. Because you have your own values. You have your own preferences. You have your own reasons, the things that are comfortable to you. That's why everybody, that's why the journal exists. You know, in other words, you, what do you care about? What do you want? What do you feel after you reflect that's that's so important that's what i mean like you create your own principles or your own religion in a sense of how you live your life so know yourself and then with that of what you're like and where your pull is and so um there are no you know there's some comment i shouldn't say no, but you know, like, like a principle is there's no success is not how much money you make or how much status you have or whatever it is, you know, and there are many ways to live a successful life. Successful means that it's your definition of what's successful. What is bringing you happiness? You know, it could be, I don't know, being a surfer and living in nature and supporting yourself. However, like, I don't know, tending bar or something, and you have a great, or it could be anything else. All of those choices are yours. Don't adopt somebody else's choices, and then follow the principles that you have in order to get them.
Speaker 2
Are you surprised that after 47 years of building Bridgewater into this huge, you know, the world's largest hedge fund and one of the most successful of all time, clearly. Are you surprised at how much joy you're getting from letting go of the reins and handing it over to the next generation? Because it seems to reflect this understanding of what the third phase is about, right? No,
Speaker 1
I'm not really surprised. would say if I was going back 20 years, I might've been surprised, but I've really wanted this. I really wanted this. It's like, I really want others to be successful without me. I want them to be successful without me. And it's like parents and grown, having grown children. What do you want more? Do you want them, do you want to be needed or do you know you want them to be successful without you? I mean, to have a good relationship, not without, you want to have a good loving relationship, but you want them to be, and that's the relief that comes. And I've wanted that, and I've been trying for that with a couple of failed attempts, which is also how things go. When I started the transition, I said to myself, well, I think it'll probably take me two years, but I also know that I have a principle, if you haven't done something three times before successfully, don't assume you could know how to do it. And I know that it's a founder-led organization, transitioning is notably a difficult thing. So I said, I think it will take me up to 10 years to do it. And it took me 12 years to do it because of things. And so, no, it's something that I wanted and I'm so enjoying. It's like watching your kids be successful without you. It's just, it's great. So I did want it for a long time. Maybe if I went back 20 years, maybe I would say, you know, I was in the phase where I liked being the one and doing the things I did. But, you know, pretty on early after that event in 1982, I also didn't want to be the all-knowing decision maker because I know it doesn't work well. I like the back and forth. So, no, for a long time, I've wanted this, and now I get to experience it and savor it.
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