Kathryn Mannix has spent her medical career working with people who have incurable advanced illnesses.

Starting in cancer care and changing career to become a pioneer of the new discipline of palliative medicine, she's worked with teams in hospices, hospitals, and in patients' own homes to deliver palliative care, optimizing quality of life even as death is approaching.

Kathryn has worked with many thousands of dying people and has found their ability to deal with illness and death both fascinating and inspirational.

She believes that a better public awareness about what happens as we die would reduce fear and enable people to discuss their hopes and plans with the people that matter to them.

Her account of how people live while they're dying, in her book, With the End in Mind, was published to Universal acclaim and was shortlisted for the Wellcome Prize.

Kathryn's next book, Listen: How to Find the Words for Tender Conversations, starts with a potent story about her early career encounter with Mrs. de Souza.

I encourage you to listen to this discussion more than once.

Kathryn's listening, it's well class and the way she explains listening is compelling. I have five copies of Kathryn's book to share.

If you email podcast@Oscartrimboli.com with the subject "Tender" and your reflections of this conversation.

You could reflect on the story of Mrs. de Souza.

You might reflect on Dorothy and her listening, or how you think about dancing and listening, the difference between doing and being listening, the impact of listening via video versus face-to-face. This is such a rich and nuanced experience.

Kathryn completely changed the way I think about listening.