Show Notes

• Netflix Subtitle Lawsuit 
• Lincoln and the Bardo 
• 22 – Are Multiple Points of View Good or Bad?
• Critical Role
• Last Ship of the Republic
• A Oneshot Review for FAITH
• Is a Hotdog a Sandwich 
• The Best Angry Review We’ve Ever Gotten 
• 334 – Monarchy in Spec Fic
• 339 – Annoying characters
• 279 – City in the Middle of the Night 
• Pitch Meeting 

Transcript

Generously transcribed by Suzanne. Volunteer to transcribe a podcast.

Chris: You’re listening to the Mythcreants podcast with your hosts Oren Ashkenazi, Wes Matlock, and Chris Winkle. 

[opening song]

Chris: You’re listening to the 10th anniversary episode of the Mythcreants podcast. I’m Chris and with me is… 

Wes: Wes. 

Chris: And… 

Oren: Oren. 

Chris: As a reminder, we’re celebrating ten years by giving every patron at the $10 a month or Pegasus tier feedback on a thousand words. So if you want to join the celebration, go to patreon.com/Mythcreants and sign up by August 14th. 

[Chris makes static noise]

This is Chris from ten years in the future. You have to stop. Our advice is being used by the super app X to make humans into mindless story addicts. 

Wes: No!

Chris: If only we had stopped raising engagement while we still could. 

Oren: Oh no. Hoist by our own petard. 

Chris: In the future, you have both been replaced by generative AI story bots. Now they’re coming for me. They’re here! Aaaaaaah! [Chris makes static noise]

Wes: Don’t struggle, Chris. It’ll be alright. 

[Laughter]

Oren: Hello, I am Oren. I dislike things, but like other things. It is confusing. 

Wes: I’m Wes, and I pipe up every now and then to say things. [Laughs]

Oren: Nailed it. 

Wes: Nailed it. 

Chris: I’m Chris, here to give you advice on writing your novel using the three-act structure. Start with an inciting incident. 

Oren: No! It’s wrong! 

Chris: Then use strong characters who have goals and go through conflicts. 

Oren: The future is horrible and I don’t like it. I want to go back. I want to go back to the 90s. The 90s when we didn’t have any of this nonsense. 

Chris: So yeah, for our 10th year anniversary episode we’re gonna be talking about the Mythcreants podcast. All meta, all the way down. 

Oren: Our topic is ourselves. And if we can’t talk about ourselves, what can we talk about? 

Wes: What have we been doing this whole time, really? 

Oren: I mean, who can say? I have no idea, honestly. 

Wes: We’ve been doing it for a while, though, so there’s probably some kind of history to it. 

Oren: Every time we come up with a topic, I’m like, have we already done this topic? I have to search the site, because I have no idea. If I find out we have, I’m like, yeah, but this time we’ll call it revisiting that topic. Which is a very fancy way of saying we’ll do it again. 

Chris: I mean, at 450 episodes, it’s like, what topic have we not done? [Laughter]

Oren: Revisiting, revisiting romance arcs. 

[Laughter]

If you weren’t here at the beginning, this podcast has been part of Mythcreants since it all started in the ancient year of 2013. 

Chris: Which was before podcasting was cool. 

Oren: I mean, is podcasting cool? 

[Laughter]

Important question. I think it was my idea, because at the time I had a very casual Star Trek podcast. 

Chris: Two hours every week about Star Trek! So much Star Trek! 

Wes: That by definition is not casual. 

Oren: It was casual in that it was very low effort. One of the things about this podcast that I learned is that once it was part of a business, it mattered how we sounded. And the Star Trek podcast, we just did our best. I would sometimes edit out background noise using automated tools, but I would almost never do anything serious. Because it was two hours, and it was for a casual Star Trek chat podcast. 

Chris: Right, and editing two hours of audio every week, oh, that is so much work. 

Oren: Yeah, that would have just been impossible. So I barely did anything. It only took a while before I realized that wasn’t going to cut it if we had a podcast that was supposed to project professionalism to the extent that our podcast has ever done that. 

Chris: Not sure we ever got there. 

[Laughter]

Man, I just remembered that back in 2013, when we started this, again, podcasting wasn’t so big. Now there’s these fancy podcast hosts that do everything for you. I don’t think those existed when we first started. Creating a podcast technically isn’t that hard. It runs on RSS technology, which is very janky. Now it’s kind of a problem that the technology… it had been created for something almost very different, which was this idea of the web, that everybody would syndicate their content. That all of these blogs would publish articles, and then separate aggregators would grab them and remix them. It was always a power user thing and never really took off. So then RSS was just kind of abandoned until suddenly it was the basis for podcasting. 

Oren: Yeah, why not? Now we have the fun issue where if we include more than like 100 episodes, it breaks all of the small podcatchers that people use. But then when we don’t do that, all the people who use Apple podcasts or Stitcher email us and be like, hey, how come only 100 episodes are available in your archive? 

Chris: You want more than 100 episodes? 

Wes: Bless you. Thank you. 

Chris: You really want to listen to my voice that much? Over 100 episodes of me talking? I don’t understand. 

Oren: I’m not sure that you do, to be perfectly honest. If you go back a couple hundred episodes, I’m not sure we’re worth that much time. We’ve gotten a lot better at staying on topic to the extent that we stay on topic. 

Chris: I mean, you can only stay on topic so much if you have a discussion podcast, right? Because you gotta let the discussion go where it goes. You don’t want to railroad the discussion. 

Oren: Unless it’s about trains, then you do want to railroad it. 

Chris: Oh no. 

Wes: Ten years of these puns. 

Oren:The kind of humor you’ve spent ten years listening to. 

[Laughter]

But the podcast has improved a lot, if not necessarily through us. The production values are much better now. We have very generous volunteers who help us out. We have better tools. The Audacity’s volume leveling tool used to be hot garbage, and now it’s actually quite good. That’s one of the reasons why we’re easier to understand now then we used to be. We have some external software that removes a lot of the filler words that we use, which get kind of annoying to listen to over time. 

Wes: I really like listening to the published versions of this, because we sound better. 

Oren: We do. And of course, that’s also down to our editing volunteers, right? 

Wes: Yes. Yes. Thanks to them. 

Oren: And we have transcripts now. We added those back in 2019, I think. I admittedly vastly underestimated the utility of transcripts. I just assumed they were a disability accessibility thing, and they are. They are important for that. But they are also useful for everyone else, regardless of disability status. People really like to read podcasts, which is not a thing. 

Chris: And that’s the case for most accessibility features, right? They’re not just for people with disabilities, they’re also for people who only have one hand free at the time, or are half paying attention to something else, or just that’s what works best for them, or a huge variety of situations.

Oren: Thank you to the people who sued Netflix in, I think it was 2011, to make them put subtitles on everything. 

Chris: Yeah. So, in the beginning, I was not part of the podcast. 

Oren: Yeah, that lasted about three episodes, I think. 

Chris: Some three or so episodes. And then it was like, Chris, can you please come on the podcast? 

Wes: Chris, did you listen to it before you hopped on? 

Chris: I think a little bit. 

Wes: Chris listened to like 20 minutes and was like, nope, nope, nope, nope. 

Oren: It wasn’t like the hosts that we had at the time were terrible, and we needed to replace one, but it was literally just that one person overcommitted, and the idea that Chris wasn’t going to be part of anything super big that we were doing in Mythcreants, that just didn’t work out. Way back in the day, we had this idea that Mythcreants was going to be a very large team of people who contributed occasionally. 

Chris: That does not work. 

Oren: Nope. We realized that didn’t work, and so it became a small team of people who contribute all the time. 

Chris: Yeah, and it’s also partly a matter of chemistry among the hosts. So, after somebody dropped out, and I subbed in, Oren asked me to stay, because he felt that we had the right chemistry between myself, him, and Mike, who was one of our first hosts. 

Oren: And Mike had a lot of gaming knowledge and deep lore understanding, and that was nice to have on the podcast, but I also really appreciated when Wes joined us in 2017 and brought both copy editing expertise and knowledge of literature that Chris and I—that’s not our thing. We do not know much about that. 

Wes: Yeah, all the books that Mythcreants hates, I’ve read them.

[Laughter]

Oren: I just had someone send us in a question that was like, hey, what do you think of Lincoln and the Bardo? And I’m like, hang on, I’m passing this off to someone who can actually answer that question. 

Wes: Yeah, I love that book. 

Oren: Yeah, great. It’s a great answer. You guys will be able to read it on the site in a couple weeks or so. 

Chris: And when we started, it was one hour every other week, which is why we’re not at episode 500 after 10 years. But we had this issue, again, we had a lot of loose contributors who contributed every once in a while. We got to this point where I was posting something every Friday, an article, and Oren was posting something every Saturday. And then Sunday we switched off between the podcast and an article that was by everybody else. All of the other looser contributors, only we only needed to get something from them once every other week. And that was the day we were always struggling to fill our schedule. So finally, Mike suggested that we go down to a half hour every week and no more articles on Sunday. And that worked great. 

Oren: If nothing else, it allowed us to cover more topics because not every topic has an hour of content in it. So at half an hour, we can talk about more, some people are in a rush, so we’re a little easier to listen to. It also gave us something to do every Sunday. 

Chris: So I made an effort to try to trace back the meta jokes, where we temporarily open with a joke about ourselves. I have not yet found the source. I opened episode 53 with a meta joke. So we’ve been doing them for a really long time. I think it used to be more common that we would introduce the topic of the episode first. And then somebody, usually Oren, would come in and add a little meta joke until, I think about the time that you came in Wes, it became a standard thing to start with a meta joke. 

Wes: Yeah, I think it was just a fun kind of way to just change it up. We share short show notes, but wouldn’t always loop each other in on the starting joke. So a lot of time we just kind of catch each other off guard. Those are always really fun moments. 

Chris: Other experiments, we had a debate cast, a debate between myself and Oren. I even created a separate category on the website for it, assuming we would do more. 

Oren: Yeah, for all the other ones we did. 

[Laughter]

Chris: And yeah, we never did them again, which I think is honestly for the best. I like how lively the debate is, but I just think maybe it’s a little too combative, especially when I’m doing debating. 

Oren: Look, I already get nervous and stressed out when you guys disagree about something. I don’t know if I could handle a debate cast between anyone else. 

[Laughter]

I’d just be over here being like, oh, no, the other hosts are fighting. No!

Chris: [Laughter] And we had the recorded role-play. 

Oren: Yeah, those were a lot of fun and way too much work, it turned out. 

Chris: Yeah, it’s really hard to just get everybody coordinated and get a good recording put together. It’s just… 

Oren: They were technically very challenging and the number of hours they take to edit was absurd. Even before we kind of realized that our role playing audience was sort of too small to support dedicated content on the site, those were still… You know, we had a few people who really liked them and that always made me feel good. Right. I loved it when people said they liked our recorded role-playing sessions.

We still don’t have a good term for those. It’s 2023. I hate it. I’m not calling them actual plays. That doesn’t make any sense. Anyway, you know, when people say that they liked them, it makes me feel great. I love it. But just most people do not have the time or interest to listen to those because we’re not Critical Role or any of the other people who have whatever it is that gets people to want to listen to those at a regular time, on a regular basis. 

Wes: Charisma. 

[Laughter]

Oren: Yeah, maybe that’s what we’re missing. I don’t know. 

Chris: Right. I do think that the production budget kind of has to be higher to make those work. Usually they have actors on to play the characters. And just a lot more. They’re a lot showier. So, no, I don’t think that was feasible for us. But I do not regret my role as a capitalist bug. 

Oren: That was good. Capitalist bug was good. I’m still very proud of our ten-part Star Wars show. 

Wes: Yeah, I can’t believe you guys did that. Can’t imagine how much work that was. 

Oren: A lot. Now, the sound quality on that is still not fantastic because we were literally just all recording it in one room around a microphone. But, you know, we did our best. 

[Laughter]

Chris: So sometimes people ask us about the in-jokes and what we’re talking about, because I mean, ten years. I mean, we don’t have a huge list of in-jokes, but we definitely have some. 

Oren: And it is a secret we will take to our grave. 

[Laughter]

Chris: First, we occasionally reference Podcastia, Goddess of Podcasts. That’s from our Pantheon’s episode. It’s 226. 

Oren: There was, of course, the now famous sandwich discourse, which people occasionally email us to be like, what the heck are you talking about? 

Chris: Why do you keep talking about sandwiches? What do you mean? 

Oren: This started back in 2019 in episode 232, as far as I can tell. And it, of course, references the meme, Is a Hot Dog a Sandwich? Which, of course, had been on the Internet since 2011 because I’m nothing if not sedate in my references. 

[Laughter]

The reason I brought it up was just because I was noticing that every podcast, we would have to start with this long discussion about terminology, because all storytelling advice is hampered by this problem that we all have different definitions and words mean different things. And sometimes we use made up terms because there wasn’t a good one. And people have independently created different terms for the same thing. And then you just have concepts that are inherently fuzzy, like genres. And so we spend a lot of time defining what we mean by things. And that’s where you get into sandwich discourse. Sometimes it can get a little silly. 

Chris: I honestly find sandwich discourse would be a lot of fun because it, you know, you discover interesting things that you did not think about before that, like, for instance, dragons always either have wings or special breath power. Right, and if they don’t really have either of those things, they’re not usually considered a dragon anymore.

And you don’t really think about that when you’re thinking about dragons. But when you try to break apart all the different things that make a dragon and look at what you can take away, you know, and what pieces are essential, you can come up with some very interesting answers. 

Oren: I mean, it’s all, you know, fun and games until you’re trying to eat a piece of fried chicken and someone insists you call it a calzone. 

[Laughter]

And of course, there’s our favorite reference that we’ve made since just last year, which is, would you like a cup of depression? 

Wes: Oh, my gosh. Nothing’s going to top that one either. It’s the best thing that’s ever been said about us. 

Chris: Yeah. I mean, if you don’t like to learn by watching people drown, you’re not a Mythcreant. That’s all I’m going to say. 

[Laughter]

Oren: And you have put on the Mythcreants saddle of soulless commentary. This is all from an angry review that we got in June of 2022. This person is clearly very upset, but they are so creative that I give this review five stars. Like they gave us two stars, but this is a five star effort. That is what this is. 

Chris: We’ve definitely got five stars worth of joy out of this two star review. That was lovely because you can just go on Apple podcasts and look at the reviews of our podcast and see it. Read it for yourself. See exactly what this person said. It’s amazing. 

And last but not least, let’s not forget Wraith McBlade. 

Oren: Yeah, we haven’t talked about Wraith McBlade recently. 

Chris: The Bladenator. 

[Laughter]

Oren: That one’s from episode 376 is the earliest reference I could find to Wraith McBlade. I think it was just a fake Grimdark Edgelord character name I came up with. 

Chris: Yeah, and we thought it was funny, so we kept using it. 

Oren: All right, everybody. Everyone needs to pick a favorite podcast memory and/or episode. If we have time, we can pick more than one. But I really, really liked our discussion on Monarchy in Specfic episode 334 because we’re not a political commentary podcast or a political commentary blog. We do talk about politics when they are relevant to storytelling, which is a lot.

But we don’t go into political theory. Right. I know where my expertise are. But I still have opinions about political theory. And that episode was great because it let me voice those opinions in an area where my expertise was actually relevant. Wes, what about you? What’s your favorite? You got a favorite podcast? 

Wes: Oh, boy. You know, we’ve done a lot on characters. And so most of our character content is really fun. But the one we did on annoying characters in the late 300s. 

Chris: Oh, my gosh. I put that one down, too. 

Wes: Yeah, that one it’s just too funny. I mean, maybe it’s low hanging fruit, but it was just funny. And that was the moment we really just went all in on fart bending from Korra. Oh, my gosh. 

Chris: For me, just the hilarious noise you made. Because for anybody who has not listened to 390, OK, my idea was to give Wes some sort of gimmick that would be really grating. Right. Because a lot of annoying characters are comedic characters that just are very repetitive and it just gets very old. And so I just told him to make a weird gimmicky noise. But the noise that he chose was genuinely funny when it was not supposed to be. It was supposed to be just annoying. 

Wes: That was fun. 

Chris: For me, one funny thing I like to talk about is the time I made a blanket fort. I recorded with Mike and Oren. This is when we still recorded together in person using the same mic. The reason we did that is because being in person allowed us to use body signals to trade off. Right. Who is talking when and later we just got used to doing it remotely, and that allowed us to record on three tracks. It just led to better quality. But for a long time, we did it in person.

And we had this problem where suddenly all of the recordings were just crap. It was just terrible quality and we were having a hell of a time figuring out why. So we did a bunch of tests and tried to… and so I tried to isolate any type of background noise or echoing or what have you. I just basically put together what was a blanket fort to try to insulate the room. When we sat in a blanket fort and recorded a podcast.

It turned out to be the sound card on my computer. It was a weird thing because I would do tests and it would turn out fine. And then we would record again and it would just turn out to be crap again. But until I talked to a sound engineer and he asked me about my computer, and I realized I had not taken into account which computer was being used. So I just didn’t record on that computer again, and that was solved. But in the meantime, I have a blanket fort memory because of this. 

Oren: It was the snuggest podcast ever recorded. 

Wes: I also really liked when we were reading books for the Hugo Noms the other year, but it was just like a little too time consuming for us to really do that feasibly. But that gave us The City in the Middle of the Night. 

[Laughter]

And that’s… I mean, we probably have brought that up a lot since that initial podcast, because talk about a story we just love to hate on. I mean, it’s so weird. 

Oren: It’s fun to roast. It has so many bizarre choices that I don’t understand to this day. I’ve read reviews of people who loved this book and I don’t understand any of these choices. 

Wes: Fascinating. 

Oren: Why are they called crocodiles and bison? I still don’t get that. 

Wes: The bison are like all teeth. What’s going on here? 

Oren: Then it describes them and they are nothing like crocodiles or bison in appearance or in action or in thought. You could call them anything and it would be just as accurate. You know, like they could be called mosquitoes and wombats and it would have just as much relevance. 

Chris: Honestly, I think it would be more relevant if the bison were called mosquitoes because they at least fly. 

Wes: Yes, that’s right. They fly, too! Oh, my God. 

Chris: I don’t know. I mean, I don’t actually know if the bison fly. That’s one of the very confusing things. But they’re incredibly fast and they disappear in a second. I just don’t know how they would do that if they don’t fly. 

Oren: They’re just real sneaky. You know, they hide in plain sight. 

Chris: Whereas, you know, bison are herbivores. So I don’t think that grabbing people in a blink of an eye is… I would go with mosquito instead.

Wes: Maybe they don’t eat them. They just like to murder. 

Chris: Gosh, in episode 252, Weather and Fiction, this is probably my favorite exchange. Oren is saying how, quote, generally snow is just nice. It’s cool. It’s nice snow. It’s pretty. You can make snowmen out of it. And me, having grown up in Minnesota, is like, all right, I will say this is clearly spoken from somebody who isn’t the person who has to go out and shovel the snow whenever it falls. And then Oren says, I’ve shoveled a snow. 

Wes: The day we made snow countable. That’s right. One snow, two snows, three snows. 

Chris: And this, of course, I had to point out that Oren grew up in Hawaii after that. So that’s probably my favorite exchange in the entire history of the podcast. 

Oren: The joke, though, is that whenever I go somewhere that has snow that needs to be shoveled, I’m like, yeah, I’m gonna go shovel snow because I’m only there for a week. So it’s still fun and novel. I haven’t had to do that for five years running entire winters. 

[Laughter]

I also had a really fun time. This one’s more recent, but I really enjoyed the one we did with Ari on Wizards of the Coast’s shenanigans. I just felt like all three of us, Ari, me and Wes, were just really in sync. And we were talking about something that mattered, but was also fun to talk about. We don’t do a lot of current events on the show because often they’re very depressing. This one was important, but even if it had gone the other way and Wizards of the Coast hadn’t reversed course, I wouldn’t have felt like I was discussing some existential threat. It was important enough to be interesting, but not so critical that people’s right to live depended on it. 

Wes: That was a good one. 

Oren: Yeah, it was just a fun, fun chat. I just enjoyed that one quite a bit. 

Wes: I think periodically as we’ve, you know, each of us have rotated out and brought in a sub, I mean, our guest podcast contributors, those have always been… We know some pretty good people that are fun to talk to about stuff like that. So…

Chris: Okay. So obviously we’ve talked about stories this whole time for a decade. So do you think about stories differently today then when we first started or when you first joined the podcast in your case, Wes? 

Wes: I can say that my thinking about stories has profoundly shifted having spent all these hours with the two of you. I still like things that violate all of Mythcreants’ advice, but now I notice that and I can speak about them. And I feel like I think about stories differently because learning with you and talking about it over the years, I have a much better lens for articulating things that maybe would have kind of bothered me.

But I wouldn’t quite know how to talk about it. And so, yeah, I’m pickier. When people talk about a show that they like or a book that they read, I can, I usually say like, yeah, that’s fine. It violates everything that Mythcreants have to say about it, and let me tell you why. So I become that person, which is fine. I enjoy being that person. But normally I wasn’t. I would talk about other kinds of things, but I have a better frame of reference for it.

When we talk about point of view and plot and throughlines, and character development and all those goodies and the ANTS and things like that. So, yeah, I think just a more thoughtful, consistent way to think about stories is definitely what I’ve acquired. It’s not great, but definitely from where I was coming from, I think I had taught for almost ten years teaching English and teaching literature the way it’s kind of taught. And then it’s like, what about actual real story telling advice? Oh, that’s what they’re doing here. Huh. Well, OK, let’s do that. 

Chris: What do you mean you can give advice about stories? Aren’t they like ephemeral and like, you know, magical and mystical? 

Wes: I know. Yeah, it was Romanticism all the way down. And now it’s no. It’s actual advice. Brilliant. Who’d have thought? Who’d have thought you guys? 

Oren: The thing that’s been funny with me is that I have, of course, become more critical as my job has been to critique stories. But, and this is probably hard for people who know me through the podcast or the blog to understand, I have actually become less critical in my casual interactions because I’ve gotten better at judging when is the right time to bring that up.

I definitely used to have, and to a certain extent still do, but less than before, a problem where if people would bring up a book they like, I’d be like, yeah, it’s bad for these reasons. And, you know, in casual conversation, that’s just not a great thing to do. The other person is probably not prepared for a deep, critical analysis, and they’re not going to respond well, even if everything you say is correct. I’ve just gotten better at knowing what the right time is. And of course, this is the podcast: by definition, this is the right time. 

[Laughter]

Chris: Yeah. I mean, it’s also interesting that conversely, if you have somebody who’s starting a critical discussion about something, coming in and being like, oh, that’s my very favorite story. And then defending everything is not necessarily the best. Not that you can’t defend and engage as part of discussion, but you can also enter in sort of an attitude that I need to enjoy this. And I don’t really like that you’re criticizing it and make that feel unwelcome. Right. So, I mean, when discussing stories, it’s good to see, OK, who started the conversation? Right. What kind of conversation do they want it to be? Right. Do they just want to celebrate this or do they want to analyze it? And follow their tone. That’s a good courtesy in a discussion about a story. 

For me, I had this whole idea very early on that I was going to categorize and rate stories based on how good they were at characters, plot, world building, different things separate and that different people wanted, cared about world building or another person cared about character, you know, or something like that. That was discarded almost immediately. Not that taste can’t be important, but it was overly simplistic. And I quickly pivoted away from categorizing tastes and tradeoffs into looking at understanding stories universally and what improves engagement across the board and finding that actually the question of, OK, yes, there’s lots of tastes.

But how do we improve engagement without sacrificing anything else? Right. And try to get as many people on board as possible was ultimately more interesting. And I think eventually I might, if I kept going at this indefinitely, I might branch out again. Right. And start looking more at different tastes and see if I could categorize people a little bit more by taste. Right. And look at, you know, different things. Yeah, I definitely diverged from that.

And along with that, I when I came in, I had a lot more conventional thinking and outlook that I actually parodied earlier on in this episode because, you know, started by reading books and looking at how other people were talking about stories, including things like, quote unquote, strong characters, which is always very vaguely defined. Right. And you need lots of conflict and all those things like that that are just kind of standard talking points into coming up with my own way of conceptualizing stories based on my own observations and prioritizing what I thought was important. That kind of thing. 

Oren: Yeah, I guess that’s the other thing that’s changed is I’ve become extremely cynical about other sources of storytelling advice, which is probably a little self-serving because I’m like, no, only come to us for advice. But I just haven’t run into much that’s good. Like most of the advice I find is at best too vague to be helpful and at worst actively misleading. 

Chris: People sometimes ask us to give us recommendations for other stuff. And it’s like, well, it’s not that we haven’t tried. It’s just that we have really high standards, and we’re not impressed with what we see from other people, unfortunately. 

Oren: Except from Pitch Meeting by Ryan George, apparently. 

Chris: Ryan George has such good analysis because he actually surveys the Internet and sees what everybody is saying and crystallizes that. So, yeah, that’s what makes him so good. 

Oren: Well, we are about out of time. We’re actually a little over time, but yeah, that’s it’s been ten years, guys. We’ve been doing this for ten years. Thanks to everybody for listening. I don’t know if we have anyone who’s been listening for all ten years. If you have, feel free to leave a comment and let us know. But for everyone else, just, you know, we appreciate you listening and being here with us and hearing what we have to say. 

Chris: And again, if you’d like to join our ten-year celebration, just go to patreon.com/Mythcreants before August 14th. 

Oren: And before we go, I just want to thank a few of our existing patrons. First there’s Callie MacLeod. Next we have Ayman Jaber. He’s an urban fantasy writer and a connoisseur of Marvel. And finally, we have Kathy Ferguson, a professor of political theory in Star Trek. We will talk to you all next week, which will be ten years and one week.

[Outro Music] 

Chris: This has been the Mythcreants Podcast. Opening and closing theme, “The Princess Who Saved Herself” by Jonathan Coulton.