I had the privilege of welcoming my friend Jeffrey Sachs back to the podcast. Jeffrey joined me earlier this year, and given the unfolding crises around the world, I thought it was a good time to sit down again and talk current events. I expect our conversation will generate disagreements from many listeners. Open discussion of sensitive issues however is important and one of the things that both Critical Mass and The Origins Project Foundation defend and promote.

Jeffrey is one of the most incisive thinkers I know. His career has spanned academia, global governance, and public advocacy, and his work has had a profound impact on economics and diplomacy. As one of the youngest tenured professors in Harvard’s history, he established himself as a brilliant scholar early on. But he didn’t stay confined to academia. For nearly two decades, he was a senior advisor to the UN Secretary-General, tackling some of the world’s most complex challenges.

Our conversation this time focused on two hot-button topics dominating headlines: Ukraine and Gaza. On Ukraine, Jeffrey traces the roots of the conflict back to the U.S.’s decision to expand NATO eastward—a move he argues broke assurances given to Russia in the early 1990s. He described how this decision sowed mistrust and led to today’s crisis. Jeffrey believes diplomacy is the only viable solution and floated a bold idea: a direct negotiation brokered by none other than Donald Trump, to secure Ukraine’s neutrality and end the bloodshed. I presented to him the concerns of a Ukrainian journalist who has asked me to present Jeffrey with various questions. the concern that a diplomatic solution will embolden Russia to more dramatic land grabs is certainly real in the Ukraine.

On Gaza, Jeffrey’s criticism was equally sharp. He views the Israeli government’s policies toward Palestinians in the occupied territories as untenable and unjust, likening them to apartheid. He insists that a two-state solution, grounded in international law, is the only way forward—a sentiment shared by much of the international community but ignored by Israel’s leadership, which he argues is using the United States as its handmaiden to perpetuate policies designed to create an Israeli state encompassing much or all of the territory in dispute.. For Jeffrey, the failure to pursue this path perpetuates unnecessary suffering and cycles of violence.

We didn’t agree on everything. I’m skeptical about the practicality of some of his solutions, and the basis of some of his arguments about the obstacles to peace. Nevertheless, we agree on two things. Diplomacy is always preferable to war, and a two-state solution is the only solution that might, in principle provide long term stability in the Middle East—even if the practical route to get there and ensure Israeli security in the process is rife with obstacles . Whether we agree or disagree, our conversations are always rich, nuanced, and thought-provoking. Jeffrey’s willingness to address hard truths, even when they provoke controversy, is one of the reasons I value his perspective so much. That and his encyclopedic knowledge of history and economics.

In a world so polarized, reasoned dialogue is more essential than ever. My discussion with Jeffrey reaffirmed that respectful dialogue is not just possible but necessary if we are to make progress on the complex issues of our time. Once again, that is one of the purposes of our Foundation, and this podcast. I hope you find this conversation as stimulating as I did.

As always, an ad-free video version of this podcast is also available to paid Critical Mass subscribers. Your subscriptions support the non-profit Origins Project Foundation, which produces the podcast. The audio version is available free on the Critical Mass site and on all podcast sites, and the video version will also be available on the Origins Project YouTube.