Speaker 2
did you feel with that started to be put on the table? Was that something that you'd always thought about? Because for me when I first said yes to this it was never in my mind but then eventually as I started doing it I really I was so ambitious and I thought you know what I really feel like I could do something you're
Speaker 1
like she's not doing shit I'm gonna take this company over no that's that's how I tell the story yeah I'm like I'm like I'm literally just an absentee owner pretty much at this point. I'm not really doing anything. I'm not involved. And I'm also building my personal brand in this direction of talking about economics. And like, I needed a pink detox. She's back. You ever need to go through one of those? I don't know. I sometimes, this is a whole thing, but sometimes I'll pink myself out. But you know what? Those eras came from feeling like there needs to be some sort of shame affiliated with pink. Pink represents, you know, just you're honoring your girly girl self, your hyper feminine self, and how if you ever want to go anywhere in life, you better get rid of all that shit. And so because Boss Babe was like kind of spiraling out of control and the movement, I'll say, not the business, the movement, I was like, I didn't want anything pink on my page for like five days. I didn't I didn't even want people to put the two and two together because I was afraid that they wouldn't like they'd be like oh you're just the boss babe girl which now I'm like yeah that's freaking iconic but you know at the time I
Speaker 2
remember that I remember when you were really starting your personal brand and I remember monochrome I remember it being so different to us babe yeah and then I feel like you did get quite private was that intentional are you
Speaker 1
talking about like recently when I just disappeared no
Speaker 2
I mean even back then I feel like I feel like I was kind of just like I'm gonna share every single detail I'm like yeah I remember you maybe I had a different perception I remember you being very boundaried around social like even though we were in business together I didn't really know tons about you you were very private with us but then also in with Instagram yeah it was was it was always like this elusiveness about you like what does she do like yeah what is she working on I
Speaker 1
feel like artists like to just go in that mode of like, you know, I have nothing to say. And that says it all. And I go through those phases because sometimes I do really feel like that. But yeah, I guess it was my it was my way of like coping with and dealing with like the identity crisis that I've been having for seven years.
Speaker 2
That makes sense. OK, so then acquisition, let's talk about it. Because a lot of people think that I stole the company from you.
Speaker 1
First of all, anyone who knows me knows that I would never let anyone steal my company from me. It's first of all, can anyone even do that I mean people have oh trust me there's some rumors out there about me too I don't think it's possible to do something like that so let's clear the air because one thing about me is I'm not like a pushover like how would how would that even happen like people think like one day I was just like you know like you just stole
Speaker 2
the account or just logged you out. I logged you out. I changed the password. I hacked your email. And I never looked back. Everyone needs to know that Natalie got me
Speaker 1
a huge check. Okay. Natalie paid me to get out. And I wanted to get out. That's part of how the arrangement worked. So yeah. That
Speaker 2
check. Oh my God. I had to borrow money. We had to go on an agreement where I was going to pay you monthly I remember being confident let's first talk about the deal yeah so we were both 24 25 and we were having phone calls and it was I've done a lot of business deals since then this was easy in a sense of there was so much respect I feel like I had so much respect for you and you had so much respect for me we had so much respect for the brand yeah our conversations were just here's what I think is fair here's what I feel like I could maybe do and we just got to a point where we both was like okay I
Speaker 1
mean here's why I think it was easy first of all it's always easier to sell a business when the seller wants out and so I was a distressed owner usually a distressed owner is like a 55 year old retired person who's been doing it for 30 years and doesn't want to see the business again but I was you know 24 year old who got a lot of success really early and just never even had a chance to like think. And so if I'm not mistaken, I want to say it was like your idea, like you planted the seed. Because again, the way I see it is like, you're doing all the work and you're growing it. And you're like, wait, I should probably have some equity in this mother. Yeah.
Speaker 1
I'm like, you're right. And I don't really have any plans for this and I know whatever plans you have are bigger and I want to go be an artist in the corner over here in Brooklyn in Prospect Park like how much you got let's work it out and so I think that's why it was a great deal yeah
Speaker 2
so for me I felt really confident in where I want to take the brand but I had no money I had absolutely no money and so I remember I lent some money from Stephen we'd agreed on a payment plan and then I brought in a co-founder to help me do it which in hindsight also I wish I'd also not to say that like I'm so grateful in the way that things unfolded but I wish I knew that there were like different options for buying a business yeah I didn't know you could get financing I didn't like I didn't know that there were other options for buying a business it was almost like oh you can only pay what you can afford you go in debt or whatever it was or you have to give equity up like I just didn't fully understand I'm sure you didn't either but yeah that was a big
Speaker 1
learning for me. The fact that we did that before 25 is insane. It's insane. It's insane. That is crazy. What did getting money
Speaker 2
like that at that age feel
Speaker 1
like? Great. Well, you know, it was the beginning of my like, well, I guess I should develop a personal life because the thing about me, I've always been the weird, shy, awkward kid, just a lot of like needing to heal like social anxiety. And so here I am. It's funny. I finished the final draft of my book the same week that the deal went through. And one of the thoughts I had was like, oh my God, writing that book was harder than this deal. But then the second thought I had is like this is uh the biggest check I've ever gotten I have no one to call to like party with and hang out with it I'm like I guess this is the part where I should make friends and so I don't know it was like it was bittersweet it's just an intense and extreme experience and you know how they say like I wouldn't wish early success on people I get why people say that I'm happy I had that early success but I get why because it's almost like you didn't get a chance really to earn it in the same way or appreciate perseverance in the same way and that's that's how the internet is it's just so fast it just happens so fast so here we are now yeah
Speaker 2
getting that kind of money at that age too it must have just been like holy shit who am i what do i do now and even for me when i stepped away and i was gonna sell my half of the company to danielle and that was all going through for say six months or whatever in that months, I had a full identity crisis. I was like, who am I with our boss, babe? Did you have any of that? Yeah, like it felt like a ghost I couldn't get rid of. Like, I'd
Speaker 1
be like, hi, I'm Alex. I'm into economics and philosophy. And they're like, boss, babe. And I'm like, oh. And you know what's so funny, Natalie? I got to a point where I really did successfully stop being associated with. I know. I
Speaker 2
know your brand couldn't have looked more different. I feel like you barely even mentioned it on your website. You were very private and I never told your story. I never tried to tell your story and never tried to talk about. And I, yeah, I think that's why people feel like
Speaker 1
you erased me, but that's because I wanted to be erased. Right. And Natalie knew that more than anyone. And like you caught a lot of flack for that. And so shout out for you to you
Speaker 1
strong through that.
Speaker 2
We can talk about the video, but I remember when that video went live and everyone was sending me it and everything that I had wanted to like respond. And I remember just thinking I'm not responding to something like that. If anyone's going to respond, I think it should be you. And I don't think that should be forced upon you to do that. Like we were both so young to have videos like that come out. So for anyone that's not sure what we're talking about, about a year after I think the deal went through, there was a video when on YouTube about how I stole the company from you i don't know if i saw this you haven't seen the video no oh there's a full video and then it was going around instagram it was a whole thing the video i mean the narrative you can imagine it was this white woman stole this company from this black woman she's a raised her like the narrative was very strong and I remember just being in so much fear like I'm gonna get cancelled this but I never I never really wanted to come out and tell our story because I felt like this is private this is business why should I have to explain or why should you have to explain yourself I'm sorry that happened to you
Speaker 1
yeah I hope that having this conversation, because yes, I agree that people are not entitled to know my literal business. And so I think that I'm happy we're having this conversation now because it kind of clears up the air. And I just think you're a badass for being able to, I'm happy you didn't respond. And I want to say too, that for anyone who thinks they're defending me because I think that's part of it too and it's like no Natalie has helped me a lot she changed my life I changed your life and we're happy for it I
Speaker 2
mean I do feel like our relationship is one of the most meaningful that I've ever had in a sense of I wouldn't be doing this I feel like you showed me and so many other women what was possible in early internet era early social media i mean i remember the course that you put millennial rich girl that was like an audio
Speaker 1
only course because we like uploading videos was so freaking hard back then you're right like the uploads all of that and there was no real core software either no no it
Speaker 2
was just audios and like you can make a pdf to go alongside it but it has to be a basic pdf because you can't upload a lot of things so i do love that we're finally having this conversation was there ever
Speaker 1
a part of you that regretted doing the deal you know i thought about that this morning and um no because one thing that i want to make sure everyone is clear on too is that i take responsibility and I feel like there's credit due for me kind of inspiring the movement and I see you more as like growing the company and transforming the company and I think they're both amazing I really do wish that there was some quantifiable data on how much the movement inspired women to start businesses even just have the ovaries to put pink on their branding, because that just wasn't a thing. And so for me, like what really gets me inspired and my why, which I realized this other day, even though I've been doing it for 10 years, is inspiring women to A, be themselves, but if they happen to be like a hyper feminine, girly girl, even like a ghetto fabulous girl, i feel like i am that none of that should be hidden in your brand none of that should be hidden in your professional setting especially because i feel like what's so empowering about boss babe and the message behind it was like if the competency is there if the professionalism is there if we can get the job done then what difference does it make that i'm doing it in platform heels and pink floor amen
Speaker 2
so i think there is also some confusion that the girl boss movement was first yeah let's
Speaker 1
talk about that who was first you know being first is really not as glamorous as it seems because you're too early i so early. Like this conversation only sounds good because it's 10 years later. Isn't that? Oh
Speaker 2
my God, that blows my mind. So
Speaker 1
here's how I see it. Girlboss was a book that was like exciting because it was a story about this young female entrepreneur, woman entrepreneur who built her empire. But that's it was it was just a book and so what happened was the way i see it is like philosophy was a social and cultural movement it existed even outside just the page the trickle effect of the other pages helped kind of like create this whole thing that pink and black you know it kind of reminds me of the the brat you see how like yeah like yeah i feel like that's the gen z version but there is this aesthetic millennial pink like that became an official term and i'm like okay i do think you created millennial pink i'm like let's
Speaker 2
be real about that i
Speaker 1
remember too do you remember when the page was checkered yeah it was like checkered like no one was like experimenting with like grid aesthetic. Wait, were you the first to check that? I mean, I feel like if I say that, no one's going to believe me. But I swear
Speaker 2
to God, I was the first one. I think you might actually be right. I mean, you started the word swag trend. You started the trend of putting an image and then you would lower the brightness on it and then put the text over it. Yeah. I think you were. I didn't see anyone do