Thanks for joining us at the unSeminary podcast. In this episode we’re talking with Kara Powell, the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute and Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary.

How is your church engaging with the next generation? Building connection and trust with young people can be difficult in today’s world. Kara’s work is all about helping churches equip leaders and engage young people, and in this conversation, she shares powerful insights for creating a church that truly connects with today’s youth.

Hope amidst declining trust. // One of the biggest reasons young people are stepping away from the church is a crisis of trust. Many view the church as hypocritical, unkind, and full of moral failure. However, research shows that while many teenagers are hesitant about church, they remain deeply intrigued by Jesus and His teachings. This means churches have a unique opportunity to rebuild trust by embodying Jesus’ love and authenticity.
Five keys to faith formation. // Kara outlines five essential components for fostering faith in young people and what it means to relationally disciple them. To start, young people need adults who share their faith and invest in them personally. Second, young people crave authentic spiritual practices, like prayer and worship, and need to be learning them in trusted communities. Third, this generation is passionate about justice and serving and wants to contribute meaningfully. Fourth, families are partners in shaping the faith of young people, and churches must equip them for that role. And lastly, a thriving church intentionally integrates young people into its vision and ministry.
Diversity is an expectation. // Today’s younger generations expect diversity because they experience it daily in their schools, extracurricular activities, and communities. If a church does not reflect the ethnic and economic diversity of its neighborhood, young people perceive it as out of touch. Ask yourself, does your church really reflect the diversity of your neighborhood? If not, how can you be more intentional about engaging with the broader community in authentic ways?
Love your neighbors. // Evaluate what percentage of your church’s resources are focused on yourself versus serving and loving your broader community. Too often, churches focus inward, investing the majority of their time and finances on internal programs. Seek ways to love your community through service and outreach, as these acts of love make a profound impact and draw people in.
Build a Transformation Team. // To implement meaningful change, Kara recommends assembling a Transformation Team—a group of 5 to 12 individuals from different areas of the church who are committed to driving change. This team should include young people and representatives from various ministries (for example, children’s ministry, worship, missions, etc.). By working together across departments, churches can ensure that engagement with young people is woven into the fabric of the entire church.
Four zones to help change. // Kara’s latest book, Future-Focused Church, co-authored with Jake Mulder and Ray Chang, provides a roadmap for enacting change in the church. The book introduces a four framework that includes: Who (who can help catalyze change), Here (what’s your church’s current reality), There (where is God calling you), and How (how will you actually make the change). This structured approach helps churches strategically plan for the future and avoid common pitfalls in implementing new initiatives.

Visit futurefocusedchurch.com to learn more about Kara’s new book, Future-Focused Church
Leading Through Change, Engaging the Next Generation, & Building a More Diverse Tomorrow, and explore the resources available.

Plus, check out Fuller Youth Institute at fulleryouthinstitute.org for help coming alongside the young people in your community, and connect with Kara on social media @KPowellFYI.

Click here to listen to the unSeminary podcast episode Healing the Racial Divide in Your Church with Derwin Gray.

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. You know, this is one of those topics… in fact, I was reflecting recently, it revolves around one of the saddest things I ever heard a church leader say, which was, “It’s been decades since there were young people at our church.” And man, we don’t want that to happen at any of our churches.

Rich Birch — And today we are in for a real treat. It’s our honor to have Kara Powell. She’s the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute and the chief leadership and the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Theological Seminary. That’s a lot. That’s a long title. she’s really an expert in this whole area. She speaks regularly at national parenting and leadership conferences, and is an author and co-author of a number of, from my perspective, must-read books. She’s got a brand new book that’s just come out that we want to make sure you read. But, Kara, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.

Kara Powell — Thanks, Rich. It’s wonderful to be with you and all of your awesome listeners and viewers.

Rich Birch — This is great. I’m I’m honored that you would be with us. For for those that might not be familiar, kind of unpack a little bit about your role at Fuller Youth Institute and Fuller Theological Seminary in general.

Kara Powell — Yeah, well, I’m a faculty member, and I certainly love that role at Fuller Seminary. You already mentioned another role I’m passionate about, which is I’m the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute. And our mission there is to equip diverse leaders so that faithful young people can change our world. And we do that by turning research into resources.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kara Powell — So we take the best research that Fuller and others are doing and turn it into practical resources. One of FYI’s major initiatives is the ten by ten collaboration. So an additional role is that I’m the founder of the ten by ten collaboration, which seeks to help faith matter for 10 million US teenagers in the next ten years in the spirit of John 10:10.

Kara Powell — And then my broadest role at Fuller is I’m the chief of leadership formation, as you said. And that means I oversee all of Fuller’s non-degree training. And so really, in all these roles, I’m about turning research into resources.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Kara Powell — And in many cases, that aligns with the needs and opportunities of the next generation.

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s so good. Well, you’ve been influential in my own thinking. And so many. I know you’ve helped so many people. And so I’m really looking forward to today’s conversation. You know, one of the things that I mentioned, this on the top, literally one of the saddest conversations I had was with a church leader in a church that we ended up that the physical building we ended up adopting. And one of the things they said was, man, there, it has been decades since there were young people at this church.

Rich Birch — And, you know, this is a major challenge for many of our churches engaging young people. I’d love to dive right in. What are some key reasons younger generations disconnect from the church and and what can we do to address that? That’s like a huge question, but let’s start there.

Kara Powell — Yeah, absolutely.

Rich Birch — I feel like you’d say, well, that’s my life’s work. So, you know…

Kara Powell — Sit down. We’re gonna have a long conversation about it.

Rich Birch — Yes, exactly.

Kara Powell — So, you know, it’s impossible to point to just one factor that is causing young people to distance themselves from the church. But I’ll say, one that we’re hearing about more and more these days is that young people are not trusting the church. Now let’s let’s back, you know, zoom out a little bit. I will say, in general, people are not trusting institutions.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kara Powell — Young people are not trusting institutions. And in particular, young people are not trusting the church. They view the church as unkind, hypocritical, full of moral failure. And so as a result, young people are skittish about being connected with the church. As one pastor’s 13 year old daughter said to him recently, like, why should I tell others I go to church; people who go to church or jerks?

Rich Birch — Oh wow.

Kara Powell — And that’s that’s kind of the reputation in our world. Now, I’m an optimist. And so, you know that that’s the bad news. But I’ll say, here’s the good news, and the Barna Group has done some fantastic research on this, that while well, while teenagers in the US and globally are often, distant from the church, like, they’re very pro-Jesus.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kara Powell — There’s a lot about Jesus that they find really intriguing and appealing. While they might say the church is unloving, they understand that Jesus is a person of love. So the good news for us is the more and more that we can all state the obvious: be who Jesus wants us to be…

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Kara Powell — …and do what Jesus wants us to do, I mean, that’s gone on for so many reasons.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Kara Powell — But we also think and have seen that that’s really attractive for young people.

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s like, so I’m classic Gen X and, you know, when I get to heaven, I think Bono’s going to be leading worship there.

Kara Powell — Totally.

Rich Birch — And he said, you know, I love Jesus. I’m just not so sure about his friends. And you know, that that seems to continue to resonate in, you know, in generation. I know in your work you’ve emphasized, you know, trying to break that down a little bit more. How do we build trust, relational discipleship, kingdom diversity and loving neighbors? Why are these important? Why are these important to kind of unpack those? What do you mean by those? Why are those important for us to be thinking about?

Kara Powell — Yeah. Well, here’s what they all share. First off, I want to say they’re very grounded in scripture, and scripture’s invitations and commands. Secondly, they reflect some of the most important opportunities according to what we’re seeing through research and real recent data. And then we also have seen them be really powerful catalysts for churches. And so so that’s what all three of them have in common. You know, when it comes to relational discipleship, especially of young people, too often we in the church, and this is very much Kara including herself in that “we”, we’ve offered program maybe we’ve offered teaching, but we haven’t offered real relational discipleship. And when churches do that, especially when the next generation, especially investing in the next generation, what’s so exciting is not only our young people changed, but the whole church has changed.

Rich Birch — So true.

Kara Powell — So we think one of the most, you know, exciting catalysts for revival, renewal, whatever you want to call it based on your theological tradition is, is emphasizing relational discipleship.

Kara Powell — And secondly, when it comes to kingdom diversity, you know, God’s made us in God’s image and yet we all reflect that in different ways, different ethnicities, different cultures. And, you know, in the US, we crossed a line in 2020, according to the US census, that now half of those under 18 are young people of color. So, you know, the US has never been more ethnically diverse than it is now. And how can churches not force that, but how can we reflect the communities in which we live? I mean, that’s our that’s our ongoing question to churches.

Kara Powell — And then lastly, I mean, we just can’t get away from the importance of love. I was on an early morning prayer meeting this morning with folks, and we were looking at what’s going on in our world. And, you know, one of one person said, what we need to do is kind of move away from culture wars and instead lean into love wars. Now, you know, I don’t love military, violent metaphors.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Kara Powell — So I’m I’m not saying let’s like, go brand that and hashtag that and all that, but but like, wow! You know, back to what young people think of the church. Like what if, what if we could be known…

Rich Birch — Right.

Kara Powell — …as some of the most loving people on the planet? What a difference that would make. So we think that young people and kingdom diversity and really loving our neighbors is Jesus’ command. They just offer amazing leverage right now for churches.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Why don’t we why don’t we step through those, double click on each of those and kind of unpack it a little bit at a practical level, this idea of relational discipleship.

Kara Powell — Yeah. Yeah.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I went I found it convicting when you said that I’m the one that’s thinking systems and scale and like, okay, how do we scale this thing up? Let’s come up with a new program.

Kara Powell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — But it’s deeper than that. Unpack that. Relational discipleship. What do you mean by that?

Kara Powell — Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we we especially expand this on the ten by ten website, but we’ve identified five keys to faith formation, for young people, and what it means to relationally disciple young people. And I’ll just I’ll just hit them real quickly.

Kara Powell — Number one, it starts with an adult young person relationship where faith is shared with adults. Adults are sharing faith with young people. As Paul describes in first Thessalonians 2:8, I was so delighted to share with you not just the gospel, but my very life.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Kara Powell — Second, that young people are engaged in spiritual practices and learning. I mean, that’s something exciting we’re seeing with this generation. They really want to experience God. You know, they love prayer and worship, when it’s in a community they trust. They’re really drawn to that, as well as interesting teaching. Third, that young people are serving, like that’s one of the great things about this generation. They want to be involved, sharing their faith, seeking justice.

Kara Powell — And then the fourth and fifth are that families are partners in the faith formation of their young people. And then lastly, that the overall church prioritizes and emphasizes young people. So when, as we’ve looked at the research on youth discipleship as well as scripture, those are the five drivers that we think are most important.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s specifically on the adult, the kind of adult-young person relationship…

Kara Powell — Yeah, yeah.

Rich Birch — …there’s I know you’ve done a lot of work on this area, but that to me that that is a profound understanding. I think we’ve so much of our programming bands to like, let’s keep everybody together…

Kara Powell — Yeah, yeah.

Rich Birch — …as opposed to cross-generational. Talk a little bit about that.

Kara Powell — Yeah. Yeah. Well, one of the metaphors that I like to use is, you know, growing up when Grandma and Grandpa Eckman—my grandparents—had all of us over, it’s way too many people to sit in one room, say, on a holiday meal. So they created the adults’ table and the kids’ table.

Rich Birch — Kids’ table. Yes.

Kara Powell — Yeah. And that’s what we tended to do in churches…

Rich Birch — Yeah, yep.

Kara Powell — …is create the adults’ table and the kids’ table, two separate experiences. And let me tell you, we’ve been well intentioned, like I’ve been part of the professionalization of youth ministry.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Kara Powell — I have championed that. And yet we’ve been so well-intentioned. And yet the, the, the backlash is that young people are separate, silo-ized, segregated, which is not a verb I use lightly. And so, you know, when they graduate from high school, they they know the youth group, they know their youth pastor, but they don’t have a vision for what it is to be part of church. So, you know, do 16 year olds need to be on their own, some talking about life stage issues? You bet. Just like 46 year olds and 76 year olds do.

Rich Birch — Sure.

Kara Powell — But how do we find the right balance when, yes, there’s some of that, but there’s also a lot of intentional mentoring that’s happening in a faith community.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I know in my own life this when particularly when you’ve talked about this in the past, this has had profound impact on me, reflecting on my own experience, where I’ve had this weird disconnect in my own life, where the churches I lead in, I’m not sure the church would that would be that would appeal to my parents. When we first became Christian…

Kara Powell — Interesting. Yeah.

Rich Birch — …you know, we we were in a very small church and very multi-generational.

Kara Powell — Yeah, yeah.

Rich Birch — And, you know, then I’ve led in these very like you say, kids table, adult table churches over the years, which has been fascinating.

Rich Birch — Let’s talk about kingdom diversity.

Kara Powell — Yes.

Rich Birch — Every zip code in America is more diverse today than it was ten years ago.

Kara Powell — Yes.

Rich Birch — It will be more diverse ten years from now. And and it seems like young people have always been appealed, you know, have always wanted kind of a diversity. Is this different than just normal kind of maturation we’ve seen, or is there something behind this that’s even more like, hey, this is an emphatic thing we need to really be leaning into?

Kara Powell — Yeah, well, I think all of us, but especially our young people, are experiencing diversity more, so they expect it more…

Rich Birch — Yes. Oh that’s good. Yeah.

Kara Powell — …other spheres. And so when you know, when they’re when their school experience from 8 to 3 is very ethnically diverse, culturally diverse, and then they show up at youth group that night or church on the weekend and it’s not that way, well, then they get a sense that the church is out of touch.

Rich Birch — Right.

Kara Powell — And is it really engaged in the community.

Rich Birch — Right.

Kara Powell — So so yeah. And you know, we constantly say you mentioned zip codes, like we encourage churches like ask yourself, do I reflect the ethnic and economic diversity of our neighborhood? And if not, then how do we be more intentional in building relationships, and who we have up front in leadership and the kind of communities that we create? So, you know, we’re not asking you to force diversity, but if you’re loving your neighbors, then hopefully that’s reflected in your neighbors being part of your community.

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s good. That’s good. I had Derwin Gray on this podcast…

Kara Powell — Oh, great.

Rich Birch — …take me to town on this issue.

Kara Powell — Great.

Rich Birch — And I would highly recommend you go back, friends, and listen to that. I think it could be, you know, just an eye opening experience for sure. So loving neighbors is the last one of these. This is can be a soft thing, but I know you don’t mean it that way.

Kara Powell — Yeah

Rich Birch — There’s like it’s got to have hard traction make a difference in our churches. What does it look like for a church that’s actually loving its community, and how does that connect with young people?

Kara Powell — Yeah. Well, I think a poignant question that I’ve been convicted by when I’ve been a pastor is what percent of our churches’ resources are focused on ourselves, and what percent are focused on what it means to love our neighbors.

Rich Birch — Ouch!

Kara Powell — And, and for a lot of churches, it’s like 90/10, 95/5, maybe 85/15. But, you know, as we think about Scripture, I’m not going to suggest a percentage. I’ll let the Holy Spirit convict all of us on that. But you know what? What kind of allocation would we think Scripture would have to say when it comes to our own internal community versus understanding the needs of our external community, and then tangibly responding? And, you know, the good news is we tell churches all the time, like, please don’t start a bunch of new programs. There’s probably already nonprofits and other ministries in your community already trying to love people. And so, you know, let’s let’s let that kind of love be what’s compelling. You know, we’re we’re recording this not too long after the fires in Los Angeles.

Kara Powell — So I’m sitting in my dining room in Pasadena, and we were evacuated for five days.

Rich Birch — Oh wow.

Kara Powell — And we know so many who have lost so much. And we have a 22 year old living with us who’s been displaced, and a friend of our family, and honored to do that. There’s just a lot of brokenness, but I’ll tell you, there are bright spots in churches when churches are loving.

Rich Birch — It’s true.

Kara Powell — What one one friend was telling me that, you know, when they were evacuated, they they came to our church, which had opened its facilities in the middle of the night to be a home. And their parents live in their back house. Dad’s an atheist. He’s had no interest in church. What he saw in our church’s community in those first 24, 48 hours. Like he started coming to church now, because he saw the body of Christ in action, loving each other and loving the neighborhood.

Rich Birch — Love it. Love it.

Kara Powell — And so, so it’s often I mean, at least what we’re seeing in in LA is in the midst of the brokenness, there’s some real beauty that comes from us loving others.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love that. Just even in my own backyard, there was a tornado that went through a number of years ago, and I was super proud of our church. We leaned in and and in fact, there’s a whole ripple. I was just reminded yesterday, there’s a whole ripple in our church of like, families that got connected to our church, not because of some fancy program…

Kara Powell — Yeah, yeah. Totally. Yeah.

Rich Birch — …not because of some thing. It was like the tornado ripped through and within, literally within hours, people from our church were over there helping…

Kara Powell — That’s awesome.

Rich Birch — …and and that had huge impact. That’s, yeah, that’s great. Okay. One of the things I was struck by in your work is this idea of a transformation team.

Kara Powell — Yeah.

Rich Birch – It’s it’s like a super practical kind of we’re thinking about change. What is the transformation team? Why is it important to help us understand this concept?

Kara Powell — Yeah. Well, I’m guessing most people who are listening or watching this right now, like you’re probably watching it on your own.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Kara Powell — And while you can listen to a podcast on your own, you can’t bring about change on your own.

Rich Birch — That’s true.

Kara Powell — And so as we’ve journeyed with over a thousand churches who have successfully made changes toward what we’re talking about, as well as other areas. Like, well, while our book focuses on young people, kingdom diversity, and loving our neighbors, this is true for any change you want to bring about. You want to become more prayerful. You want to become more worshipful. You know, whatever it might be, we highly recommend starting a transformation team. And that’s a group of 5 to 12 who are very focused on the change, who are really who are really dialed into that. That’s probably 1 or 2, pastors, but maybe it’s not led by a pastor. Maybe it’s led by a member of the congregation who really has the vision and skills to lead. One of the interesting things that we’ve seen is transformation teams—like, let’s just let’s double click on young people for a second. A lot of churches want to become more, you know, mindful and more focused on the next generation. Well, we would encourage your transformation team then to have a few young people in it.

RIch Birch — Right, right.

Kara Powell — You know, have people who who you’re trying to better love be part of what you’re of your transformation team. But, you know, we’ve also seen churches have great success by having a few young people, but then really bringing together people from all different areas of the church.

Rich Birch — Oh that’s good.

Kara Powell — Someone from children’s ministry, someone from worship, someone from tech, someone from missions, someone from prayer. And so, you know, you can think about now, how can young people or whatever change you’re wanting to make, become woven into the fabric in all these areas? So, you know, we have a lot of specific recommendations: meet every 2 to 4 weeks, you know, commit to something like six months, most likely, etc. But really, it starts with getting the right people. And we, we recommend some of some who are really core to what the change you’re trying to be and represents that change, but then also diversity across the church.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Love it. What about the mixture of like kind of the big idea people versus the like, guys that love the spreadsheets or people that love the spreadsheets. Talk us through. What does that look like on that?

Kara Powell — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, like with most everything, we love all of that.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Kara Powell — Like, it’s important to have, it’s important to have both. So you know I think a question becomes where what is our team biased toward, and how do we need to correct for that?

Rich Birch — That’s good, that’s good.

Kara Powell — So, you know and I see this. In fact, I lead two teams at Fuller where one is very big picture and struggles with execution. And the other is awesome at execution, but sometimes can lack vision.

Rich Birch — Right. That’s good.

Kara Powell — And so so, you know, we’re we’re constantly trying to compensate for that. Who who can we add who can we bring in, even for just a time period to really help with execution or to really make sure that we’re dreaming the right big God sized dreams?

Rich Birch — That’s cool. That’s good.

Rich Birch — Well, yeah. There’s a lot we could talk about there but I love that. Just even practical takeaway. Kind of a bit of a meta conversation or discussion about you as a leader. I, so this area, working with young people, thinking about the future, I feel like there’s a lot of people in this area who are like all doom and gloom. Who, like, are like, oh my goodness, the world is falling. It’s all terrible. But you seem to be able to hold this balance of like you’re realist. I don’t get the sense of like, oh, your head’s in the sky, like, hey, things are everything’s perfect. But you do come to the best days of the church are ahead of us.

Kara Powell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — Which I love. I find as I just want to honor you for that. I think it’s incredible that you have that kind of posture. At least that’s my opinion of you.

Kara Powell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — That’s what I’ve seen you lead from. What gives you confidence in that belief?

Kara Powell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — What gives you the confidence that like, hey, there’s good days coming when you’re staring into some tough realities that we face as a church?

Kara Powell — Yep. My theology gives me that confidence.

Rich Birch — Love it. Love it. Yes.

Kara Powell — So, so, yeah, I, I’m very realist. I’m married to an engineer. Like, we are two realistic people. We are a realistic family.

Rich Birch — Yes, yeah.

Kara Powell — But. And I think I’m realistic about the struggles that young people have connecting to the church. I see it in, you know, close friends of our family, etc. But in the midst of those challenges, I believe in a big, loving God…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kara Powell — …who’s constantly renewing, who’s constantly reforming, who’s constantly drawing people to God’s self. So, you know, we would say we’re not we’re not necessarily in an era of decline and decay, but we’re in an era of reimagining and renewal.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kara Powell — So I would say it starts with my theology, but then I’ll it a second less important but still important reason is it has to do with what we are seeing with young people these days. Like young people, again, open to Jesus, they are open to Jesus. And then secondly, when adults can build trusted relationships with young people, young people are hungry to get time with adults.

Kara Powell — So, you know, it takes time. But, you know, some of the very encouraging research on trust by Brené Brown and others is that when it comes to building trust in general, it’s not grand, heroic gestures that build trust. It’s small, everyday acts of listening…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kara Powell — …remembering, caring, asking again. And so, you know, for listeners right now. Like if you want to build trust, maybe there’s a young person who’s come to your mind like, why don’t you just text them…

Rich Birch — Right.

Kara Powell — …and right now and say, you know, thinking of you, how can I be praying for you? And then, you know, if they respond, then ask 3 or 4 days later, hey, I was praying for you. How did that test go? How are you doing in that conflict with your girlfriend? You know, whatever it might be. And so the good news is, any of us really, any adult, can build a trusted relationship with young people, and young people are hungry for that.

Rich Birch — Love it. So good. Well, you’ve got a book that just came out “Future Focused Church: Leading Through Change, Engaging the Next Generation and Building a More Diverse Tomorrow”. Talk to us. So this is a big project, pulling together a book with a couple co-authors on this. What’s your what was the drive? What’s the thing that kept you up at night that you’re like, we’ve got to get this into a book? What are you hoping that people will get from this?

Kara Powell — Yeah. Well, I’m so glad that Jake Mulder and Ray Chang, my two co-authors, they shared my hunger to help churches understand what needs to change. A lot of what we’ve been talking about here, Rich. But but I think a tougher question often is how do you bring about change?

Rich Birch — That’s good. That’s good.

Kara Powell — How does the church actually change? And, you know, leaders listening to this now, you know, this struggle of bringing about change. According to Harvard Business Review, about 70% of changes that leaders try to enact end up failing. So, you know, if you’re if you’re batting average is around 70%, well, then you’re right on par.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Kara Powell — Jesus sometimes struggled to bring about change.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Kara Powell — So so based on scripture, based on really good research that others have done and based on how we’ve journeyed with over a thousand churches at the full youth institute, we’ve come up with a four-step map, a four-zone map that any church can use to make change. The three areas we’ve been talking about are really any area.

Rich Birch — Love it. So good. Well, I want to encourage friends that are listening. And you know we don’t do this. We don’t typically have authors on. I really I personally, I think, you know, I got a chance to kind of sneak a little bit into the book, and I think this could be a great book to do as a leadership team, maybe elders, your staff team, that sort of thing…

Kara Powell — Yeah, yeah, yep.

Rich Birch — …to really help us think through, hey, what does the future look like? So, you know, there may be a pastor who’s listening in, who’s feeling stuck. They’re like, you know, things are are not going well in our church. What’s kind of one practical insight from the book that, you know, could help them be a future focused church, that could help them think about, okay, how do we get unstuck? How do we how do we kind of become more ready for the future?

Kara Powell — Yeah. So I mentioned we have a four-zone map in the book.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kara Powell — And it’s who, you know, who is trying to bring about the change. Who’s your community here? What’s your current reality there? Where is God calling you? And how, how do you actually make the change?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kara Powell — So in the book we start with who and we start with who are the people who can help you catalyze change?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kara Powell — And how do you start listening to your community. You know, really, almost without exception, when churches listen to their community, they’re better able to love their community.

Rich Birch — That’s so good.

Kara Powell — I can’t tell you how many churches have come to us with, well, we just started this new thing for young people. And we just started this new thing for our neighborhood.

Rich Birch — I’m laughing because I feel like I’ve been there.

Kara Powell — You’ve done that. Oh, thank you. Yes, Rich, I’m actually confessing here. In addition to sharing our research.

Rich Birch — I started this thing. Why are they not coming?

Kara Powell — Exactly. It’s like because you talked to none of them.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Kara Powell — And so so, you know, and we have seen churches pause and say, okay, wait, we thought we thought young adults, for instance, we thought we’d host a young adult new worship service. Or a young adult Sunday school.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Kara Powell — And they offer it. Young adults aren’t drawn to it. You know, a lot of times what young adults want is they want like vocational mentoring.

Rich Birch — Right.

Kara Powell — They they twenty-somethings want to have dinner with people in the church.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

Kara Powell — And so they don’t necessarily want a more separate programming. They want more cross-pollination.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Kara Powell — But you only learn that when you’re spending time with them. So. So, who? First step, first zone. And it starts with actually listening to those you’re trying to serve and creating that transformation team.

Rich Birch — That’s so good. I love that. Any, can you think of any kind of interesting stories you’ve run into? Churches that have done a particularly good job on the listening piece, that like, oh, hey, they did a great job listening. You can think of an example of that?

Kara Powell — Yeah, absolutely. It’s one of my favorite stories to tell, actually. There was a church that we studied in the Upper Midwest that had really struggled with their growth and had shrunk quite a bit, like they were contemplating shutting their doors. They were a church of 50, 75, something like that. But the leadership came together and said, you know what? We are not too old, it is not too late, and the road ahead is not too hard, and felt called by God to to do what we’re talking about, loving their neighborhood, prioritizing and listening to young people. They were near a college, and so they deployed more resources to build relationships with college students. Listen to college students. Well, that church that was about to shut its doors, it’s now a church of 1500 people, a thousand of whom are under 30.

Kara Powell — Now, in all fairness, Rich, that was actually one of the more dramatic turnaround stories.

Rich Birch — Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Kara Powell — It’s much more likely to be slower incremental growth.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Kara Powell — But you know, I thanks for asking me to share a story because I love that story just as a sign of you never know what God’s going to do.

Rich Birch – Right, absolutely.

Kara Powell — And so, you know, we say not only the best days of the church are ahead, but we believe whoever you are, the best days of your church are ahead.

Rich Birch — Oh that’s so good. See this is, friends, this is why you should be following Kara and and doing read everything she produces and this great stuff. It’s super inspiring. So let’s talk a little bit about the book. I’m sure people can get it at Amazon. Are there other places we want to send them to pick up copies.

Kara Powell — Yeah.

Rich Birch — You know, where do we want to send them online to to get this?

Kara Powell — Yeah – futurefocusedchurch.com, futurefocusedchurch.com – one word. We have a host of resources there that you can check out as well as order the book. So that is a great place to dive into our content.

Rich Birch — Nice. That’s that’s so good. I’m I would love for, like I say, friends, I really do think it’d be a great kind of team study. Something to do together. Don’t buy one, buy ten. And, you know, get together with a group of people. Because I think, by definition, like you were saying, I think there could be a problem with this book in that you read it and then you’re like, yes, I want to change.

Kara Powell — Right.

Rich Birch — But really, we should be doing this, like you said, in a team, in your group.

Kara Powell — Yep, yep.

Rich Birch — And let’s talk about this, you know, this together. Any other kind of thoughts about the book or anything else you want to share just as we kind of wrap up today’s episode?

Kara Powell — Yeah, I will say we see this all the time with churches. And this was true at my own church as my own church went through the change process. Churches often under… excuse me, overestimate what can be done in a year and underestimate what can be done in 2 or 3 years.

Rich Birch — Yeah. That’s great. That’s great.

Kara Powell — Part of what we map out in the book actually, is we have a six month and a 18 month change process that helps you set the right goals for that first year, and then continue towards God’s best future for you over that years two and three.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great.

Kara Powell — So I wish there were really quick fixes. There’s certainly some quick improvements, but it usually takes months if not years to really change culture.

Rich Birch — So yeah, that’s good. I’ve joked in other contexts that, you know, some of the stuff, some of the work I’ve done is like similar. It’s like how to grow your church in 1000 days, but no one would buy that resource.

Kara Powell — Right, right, right.

Rich Birch — Like no one is interested in that. They want the quick fix.

Kara Powell — Yep, yep.

Rich Birch — But that’s not how it works. It’s got to be methodical and process oriented.

Kara Powell — So true, Rich.

Rich Birch — Well, Kara, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for being on today’s episode. Where do we want to send people online if they want to track with you with FYI all of that, where do we send them to connect with you?

Kara Powell — Fulleryouthinstitute.org is our website. I’m on I’m on Twitter/X, Facebook, and Instagram at @kpowellFYI. It’s my first initial KPowellFYI as in Fuller Youth Institute.

Rich Birch — That’s great. And I know I said this earlier, but I do want to honor you for the great work you’ve done. Thanks for being a gift to the church and thanks for being on the show today.

Kara Powell — I am honored in return to be on your show. Thanks, Rich.

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