Although if there was one takeaway from that podcast, it was that compute will very quickly become your rate limiting step.

Very true. And like, again, it's not clear like if we have AGI today, how's that going to help me build more data centers? maybe again, it's, you know, it's like an efficiency gain, but it doesn't seem like it fundamentally changes the construct of what it means to be human or how quickly we're actually able to solve these problems. Like maybe you can use AGI to 20% increase the management of construction worker efficiency on a highway project. But like, is that actually going to impact my day to day life? Like unlikely. No, like it's, it's really not. I'll just have to hopefully sit in a little bit less construction traffic a month out

of the year or something like that. All right. Final question. Another tweet that you made maybe a little while ago, I've been, I've been following your Twitter was that you feel a very strong urge to go and make an AI startup right now. And you said that this, you know, feeling occurs to you, maybe every few months, and you have the pull that is difficult to resist presently. So, I guess a two -part question. One, what kinds of startups are attracting you? When you're thinking about this, what problems would you be going and working on? Why are you so pulled by it right now?

There's many different dimensions to this question. I think one, like, you know, being, I have a lot of appreciation for what types of problems Google is able to solve well. I think with the skill set or with the capacity that Google have, like comes all of the like design constraint problems that like just make solving a problem more difficult of a situation than you would have oftentimes in a startup capacity. It's like, it's, you know, you choose your pain, you can have your pain in this design constraint problem, or you can have your pain of, you know, not having resources and, you know, clawing at the ground zero and not having anything. And like, it's a different feeling of pain. But I think that, you know, again, it gives me a renewed appreciation for like how startup founders like really do have this green field, especially right now in this AI space of like, there's so many green fields to go and solve these really interesting problems and get to think about it from a new perspective without any consideration for how somebody has solved the problem before or what the systems they've used to solve it before. And like, that's, that's oftentimes not a luxury that you get at any large company, because there's systems that have been built to help you do your things better, which are oftentimes things that constrain you as well. So I think that's part of it from my thinking. And part of the reason why I didn't start a startup when I left OpenAI was the thing that gets me excited about is building things for developers. And outside of all my official job capacities, a ton of investing in companies, and it's often in companies that are solving these developer problems for people. And it became this weird situation where all of the really interesting hard problems that I care about in the developer space, like are being solved by people who I've invested in their companies. And it's like, okay, I can make a company and then go directly compete against people who I had enough conviction to invest money into their company, because I thought they could solve this problem. And it becomes this like weird situation for me personally. So, and on the other hand, like, there's a huge application, you know, I was talking to one of the popular venture firms, and the comment was like, their consumer team had only made a single investment, because no AI applications had yet, with the exception of the one that they invested in. none of them had hit the like threshold for what it would mean to have a successful consumer company where they'd be willing to invest their money into that company. I think there's like we have yet to see most of the value created in the consumer space. But again, like my, say the founder market problem fit, whatever the saying is, I haven't built consumer companies. I don't think about those problems all day. I really think about developer problems all day. So yeah, a bunch of stuff around fine tuning is what I basically came down to. And it was just a question of did I want to go down that route? And I think part of the reason I didn't make that decision at the time was the economics of fine tuning, I think we're still pretty limiting. And I think now if I were, have been in the same situation, seeing the economics of what's possible fine tuning Gemini models and not having to actually pay the training costs or increased inference costs, it actually makes some of the ideas that I was kicking around much more feasible. So this is a very personal example of what happens when you continue to accelerate this technology and take the barriers down. My idea went from not being financially feasible to actually being financially feasible because I could now run on the order of many hundreds of thousands of individual fine -tuned models. It gives me a lot of motivation staying at Google to continue to solve those problems, where we can continue to pull down the barriers for people who want to solve problems right now. But the technology is just slightly out of reach for whatever that use case is. Yeah. And I've seen from

the online reaction when you left OpenAI and then when you joined Google, that there's a huge community of people who are very grateful for the work you're doing, and clearly pleased about it. So your work has definitely built you a legion of admirers. Logan, I've really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat with us, and hopefully we can get you on again sometime soon.

Yeah, this was a ton of fun. Thank you for having me. All

right, that's it for today's conversation on High Agency. Reza Habib and I hope you enjoyed our conversation. If you did enjoy the episode, please take a moment to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform like Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen and subscribe. It really helps us reach more AI builders like you. For extras, show notes, and more episodes of high agency, check out humanloop .com slash podcast. If today's conversation sparked any new ideas or insights, I'd really love to hear from you. Your feedback means a lot and helps us create the content that matters most to you. Email me at raza at humanloop .com or find me at raza .com.