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Leman: I think there's a distinction here between pseudo comedy and what we might think of as the beginning level of turning something into comedy. He says dave chapel is starting out very basic because he's been doing jokes on race for decades, whereas john stuart was just learning how to make them funny. Leman: i'm so glad you're bringing the uppr andi, i totally agree. So maybe what we're seeing is him trying to be a little more open with himself in real time.