So can we actually find this out by on chains? I mean, well, we know 5% of it's Satoshi. Right. And that doesn't change. I don't know. Has there been any activity in his or her wallet? Yeah. He is,

he is dead. The other,

the other,

yeah he's got to be dead at this point right who no sane human being would be holding all of their money through this and this and this and this i'm sorry nobody has diamond hands like that it is impossible like their stuff would have been sold that that person is either dead probably or likely lost the the.

My wife thinks that it's proof that Satoshi is a woman because she says no man in their right mind could have created Bitcoin and not told somebody.

That is one of the smartest things I have ever heard somebody say. She's exactly right. Right. Yes. A hundred percent. You would have told your buddies. I

mean, it's pretty incredible. Like,

isn't that Satoshi guy pretty cool? And they'd be like, yeah, I wonder who it is and like three drinks in you'd be like okay

it's me so let me ask this i i want to throw an idea out there for you guys and i didn't prepare you for this because i just want to kind of have you guys think through it with me um it's a business that i invested in but the logic behind why i think it's interesting will ultimately get at the difference between bitcoin and crypto in my opinion so in crypto you you mentioned play to earn and this whole idea of like, I'm gonna go play the video game. I'm going to earn something. There's now a walk to earn and a bunch of these different things like do an action, get paid for it. But in each one of these, what they've done is they've basically said, I'm going to create, you know, a Zach coin, right? Or whatever it is. And if you go and you do whatever this action is, we're going to pay you in Zach coin. And it sounds amazing to the people who, again, to your point are in there early, they get a bunch of the coins and then the coins go up in value because more and more people want them. And like that ends up having some shelf life. And eventually like somebody along the way is like, wow, I have a lot of money in Zach coin. What is that coin? Uh, I'm going to turn that coin into dollars and like move on with my life. That was awesome, but like I'm over this. And then it kind of all falls apart. One of the businesses that I'm fascinated with right now is a company called Fountain. It's a podcast app player. And if you think of the podcast space, you have iTunes, which wins because they got pre-installed on all the devices. Spotify is going to go sink billions of dollars into like IP and kind of exclusive content. And so like, how can you go and actually win in the podcast space? Their idea is why don't you actually create the ability to listen to earn, but do not create another coin. Instead, just use the payment rails of Bitcoin. So the whole idea is RSS feeds are the podcast feed, right? You guys have one for cartoon avatars. And when somebody goes to listen to cartoon avatars, which they were going to do anyways on Spotify or Apple or wherever, now they will get Satoshi's streamed to them as they listen. And the first question everyone comes up with is where's the Bitcoin come from?

Right? Yeah, yeah. Whose money? Whose money is paying them? Yeah.

So what, again, as you kind of start thinking through this, they're like, okay, well, they raised some capital. They'll put a little bit off their balance sheet to kind of help jumpstart it. But really where the bulk of it, majority of the money today is coming from is either advertisers that say, I would love to advertise against cartoon avatars. But what ends up happening is I don't actually know if people are listening to the ads or not. These guys can say, if you don't listen to minute two to minute 245 in the podcast episode, you don't get the money. So they can actually ensure that you listen.

You're like what, in your 30s, 40ies, early thirties, early thirties. Okay. Do you remember this is like right around when the internet was getting created? I wasn't, this is not an age thing. I just want to see if you remember this. Do you remember the pay to earn browser extensions?

Pay to earn? No, but pay to search somebody recently. And I went down this whole rabbit hole of like paid to literally like do search queries was the one that I went and looked at. Yeah.

So like back in the day, this is like AOL ish timeframe or whatever. People were like, wait a minute, I get paid X dollars to show people ads and I can pay them X minus something in theory to watch said ads. And like, there's the ARB, right? Like that's essentially the ARB. And then what happened is basically people built these like little browser extensions and you would run them on your computer while you browsed. And that's the key here. Like you browsed is never you actually browsing. It was like somebody put like a little, like their cat would move the mouse. Like literally this is what people did, right? You would like fake mouse movements and you would fake typing and you'd fake searching. And then people built like the computer program that would pretend that it was browsing the internet and you'd get paid. And basically what happened in this whole thing, which is eerily similar to what you're describing, is people scan the system. Because people are clever and they're smart. And when someone says, here's money to do something, you're like, how can I get that money without doing that thing? Because that seems like good idea. And what you will have, I would bet my, all my money is if somebody was like, I'm going to pay you to listen to a podcast. You know what I'm going to figure out how to trick you that I'm not actually listening to this podcast. I will figure that out. And then you will pay me. And then eventually what will happen is the advertisers will be like, can you show me actually the data on the people who are listening to this? Do you know who they are? Did they log in? Who are they? Can I survey them? Can I talk to them? And somebody in the analytics department of the ad agency is going to go, are these real people or are they bots? And they're going to be bots. And that's how the story will play out. I would bet everything on it because we've watched it happen in the beginning of display ads in the early nineties and early two thousands is the exact same thing.

Okay. So fully, uh, understand the history of that. The other component of this is it's not just advertisers. It's also podcasters themselves. So let's say that you guys were making a bunch of money on, uh, advertising on your podcast. And then you basically take it and you are sharing it with your audience. You're saying, Hey, the bigger the podcast gets, the more money that we're going to make. We're going to send some percentage of it deep. Rev share with my customers or users or something. Correct. Now, the thing that becomes super interesting about this is because it's using the Bitcoin payment rails, which is just the ability across the Lightning Network to send it instantaneous and for free, right? So it just reduces frictions of payments on a global stage. You as the audience can now send money back to the podcaster. So to your point, the only way that you can really start to see, are these people real or not, is you're earning in the podcast. What they've done is they've basically created the ability for the audience to also almost like tip the podcaster. And so you get the Bitcoin and it stays within the ecosystem. Hey, you listen to earn, but then also you can turn around and you're like, Hey, I really liked this episode and your ability to comment or to engage with the podcaster. You have to basically send some sats back. And now, by the way, we're talking about a penny, two pennies, three pennies, like super, super small amounts. But what it does is it tries to get at this problem. Now, already there's people trying to scam it, right? Like, so like, that's going to happen. It's an economic incentive. Really? Really?

You offer somebody free money and then they try to scam the system. I'm like, so surprised about that. That makes no sense. In crypto,

everything was solved, right? Yeah. So I think like, what I'm trying to get at here though, is like, there's two components that are interesting to me. One is you can do some of these use cases or like ideas without having to create your own coin. And I think that's ultimately where a lot of this is going to end up is like, people are going to realize like, Oh, we're actually not trying to be like some super decentralized thing. That's highly inefficient and like brings up, you know, I don't know governance and these things are like hilarious, right? That you've got like a thousand people in a discord channel, all trying to make a decision, like good luck. Right. And instead they say, no, we can just do this with whether it's Bitcoin or stable coins or whatever. But the second thing also is, uh, this idea that if you have payment rails where you bring the cost down to zero, I'm not a believer that like you and I are going to go try to read an article and pay a penny. Like that just feels to me like that's probably not where the world is headed. Uh, but it does feel like if you can stream me money as I'm doing actions, you can divert my attention to do different things, similar to the mercenary versus missionary thing. And if I'm going to listen to the podcast anyways, then maybe I actually will come listen to it on your app versus iTunes. Cause I'm going to make $2 and it feels like, you know, I'm winning, even though it's only $2 and it's capped so that I can't abuse the system. Thoughts? You're going

to

abuse the system. I

also think, listen, I think podcasting as players is due to the whole ecosystem is broken. I'm sure you can speak to that. So I'm happy about the people taking bets and I respect everything that Spotify is doing and anchor. I think all these incentive things that are out of the course of normal behavior, like you look at honey, which has been, you know, I think the most successful or at least largest outcome of something that like incentivized behavior in some way, it was passive, right? Totally passive. And you were able to just do it in your normal course and speed. And I think that, you know, if you look at, I think, you know, the ramp guys a little bit and like what their last business paribus did in the saving side was it was like totally passive email capture, all of that stuff. Right. I think when you need to change people's behavior to Zach's point and like to port away from an existing aggregator, I just think the incentives of like small micro transactions, you may be able to do it because you have a loyal following, presumably that's going to follow you over there. And maybe a handful of people are going to do the friction to go do that. But the TAM that exists of your loyal followers and to get the incremental market share, it just doesn't seem worth it from like a user standpoint, as well as a podcaster standpoint, because inherently you might have your very loyal fans that are going to come with you to this pot. And maybe you get a whole ecosystem to do that, but then you're constrained to, instead of all of Spotify or all of RSS or all of whatever it is, it's some finite number of loyal users. And so I don't know. I like innovation that's happening in this ecosystem because it does suck. But I guess I'm I would never I can't imagine we're not monetizing what we do. But I think it would be really hard to to get anyone but your most loyal fans to come with you to a new platform. I

mean, you actually prefer as a content producer, subscription revenue, right? It's predictable. You can price it higher. I mean, this is why most of the large newspaper publications kind of don't like micropayments for content because they think it cannibalizes the subscription revenue because some subset of those micropayments, because they don't add up to the same, the subscription dollar is bigger than the micropayment and consistent. They think they capitalizes their business, which is why most of them basically refuse to do it, or they only do it in these like really edge case things. So, but I just think it's like, it's not even the, will people do it or not? And I agree with everything Logan said, like most won't. The bigger issue is just like when you give free money to people, they will abuse the system. Always. Human beings will abuse the system when you give them easy ways to make money. And by the way, they're not even just going to be like listeners. They're going to be, you know, people in other countries with a lot of time on their hands and low incomes going, wait a minute, like- Cell phone farms. Yeah, exactly. User farms, cell phone farms, like bot farms. I mean, you know what they're probably going to do, man? They're going to take all of those crypto mining rigs that they can't run anymore in China because they're banned and they're going to build the world's best fake podcast audience listening system and get paid all the money back for the hardware they spent. That's the kind of shit people do because they're clever. And like, this is why this whole like, oh, I'm going to give like micro payments and little coins to people. It doesn't work because the incentive is really to like ride the coin up and get out and to abuse the system. If you want people to be aligned from an incentive standpoint, and this is true, not just of users, it's also true of like, you know, your employees and your investors, you give them equity and equity is the chance at future. We have systems to do this, right? It's called invest in the company and give equity grants. And we've done this for like a hundred years and it's regulated and we have rules around it to protect people from taking equity and companies that don't actually exist and paying money for it. Like the whole system actually kind of already exists. And there are problems, but most of those problems are not technology problems. They're like IRS problems and legal problems and like 83B election problems. Like it's that kind of stuff. And so all crypto is trying to do is say like, oh man, this equity stuff is like really annoying because there's a lot of rules. There's a reason there are rules, but there's a lot of rules. So like, instead of doing this equity thing, which has all these rules and regulations, I'm going to do this coin thing, which has no rules and regulations. And like, that's how I'm going to get people the money. And we're just reinventing all the stuff people used to do. And we're going to get all the same scams and then we're going to get all the same rules. You know, there's this window in time where like it's a pretty good business. I was talking to somebody and they're like, well, the reason I own Bitcoin is because other people are buying it and there's momentum. And I'm kind of like, that's the best reason I've ever heard to own Bitcoin. That is the best reason to own it. It's going up because other people are buying it. And like, yeah, that's true. Why don't you own it right now?

Will you buy

some? Because I'm stupid, man. And I try and think about like, what is the long-term value cash flow of this thing? And I like actually try and reason through it. And what I actually should be is like, yeah, my uncle who barely knows how to use a computer is buying Bitcoin. I should probably buy Bitcoin too. And then when he tells me he sold it, I should probably sell it. Like that's actually what I should do. And I don't because I can't get it out of my head. I'm like, why do I own this? Why do I own this? Why do I own this? And the same thing is true of gold. Like I don't own gold because I don't want to, what am I going to do with the gold? Am I going to like stick it in my apartment somewhere and like show it to my kids? Like doesn't mean i'm right although i was you know you called me out on twitter and you were right like i was wrong for a while and now i look a little bit more right but to me it's almost irrelevant it's almost irrelevant which is like i don't it's not about the money i'm making or losing it's a lot more of like what is going to happen in the future and like is my uncle selling his bitcoin and should he have owned it in the first place so that why I don't own it more than any sort of like belief

system. You should, let me give you a Twitter tip, which I've seen a bunch of the Bitcoin critics do lately, is they go and they literally might buy $5 of Bitcoin, $100. I don't know what it is, some small amount, maybe even they buy one Bitcoin. And then every time that somebody like yells at them on Twitter for any opinion that they have, they're like, I own some. And it's the like, uh, uh, like I I'm now in the club. So like, you can't attack me as a critic because I can be a critic, but I own some.

One of my favorite questions. Um, I don't know if we have time to do it, but one of my favorite questions to ask people is like, when would you, what would get you to change your mind? About Bitcoin? When would you sell? Yeah. Like when would you sell? What would have to happen for you to sell?