This is a conversation that was recorded at the monastic academy shortly after a recent retreat that i helped lead. The retreat was called the anti fragile heart retreat, and the format was one in which we sort of went back and forth between circling or present moment focused relational practice with various kinds of transformational technologies. And it's like many things that area very, very beautiful, defies an easy explanation. So merely, e interesting and meaningful things happened and so, ah, this conversation we recorded was an attempt by myself and one of the other facilitators to make sense out of what we had just gone through together. I hope you enjoy.