The Debate Over Pronatalism: Ideological Missteps and Historical Contexts

In this revealing episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins address a recent investigative piece by Hope Not Hate about their pronatalist activism. They discuss the implications of the article, clarify their positions on controversial topics, and offer insights into how they navigate the complex landscape of demographic discussions. The couple provides a behind-the-scenes look at their experiences with undercover journalism and reflects on the broader implications for the pronatalist movement.

Key topics covered:

* Response to Hope Not Hate's undercover investigation

* Clarification of pronatalist views and strategies

* Discussion on eugenics vs. polygenics

* Media representation of the pronatalist movement

* Challenges of discussing demographic issues

* Importance of transparency in activism

* Reflections on privacy and public discourse

This video offers a candid look at the challenges faced by pronatalist activists and provides valuable insights for anyone interested in demographic trends, media representation, and the future of population dynamics.

[00:00:00]

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. Today is a special episode because this was an article that was two years in the making two years ago. You and I went out to drinks with Who turned out to be an undercover reporter for the organization, Hope Not Hate, that has done this amazing and groundbreaking expose on us.

Actually quite flattering. It is actually quite flattering. These guys are a big deal.

Simone Collins: These guys host dinners. Overall,

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I come away with two big, big takeaways from this. One, is nobody cares. One of my favorite things is two years to do an investigation to get 26 likes. That was one of the comments under it.

And I went through every single comment under it on Twitter and there wasn't a single one supporting them. All of them were like our fans or other supporters of us that were just like, you guys are crazy. You guys are the bigots. You guys are the Hope not. He'd

Simone Collins: actually turned off. No,

Malcolm Collins: it looked like that for you because they blocked you.

Simone Collins: Oh, I [00:01:00] don't know how things work. Okay, that explains things. But

Malcolm Collins: anyway so first nobody cares.

Speaker 3: Dodgson! Dodgson! We've got Dodgson here! See, nobody cares.

Malcolm Collins: Just, just, things, you can't cancel people anymore. Like, cancellations are so over. This organization was founded, back in 2004 and really grew to its height during that 2010 culture wars era, which you know The the woke side of the culture wars no longer has the momentum it had back then and a lot of people knew this article was going to come out before it came out because they had to warn us all because It was in the uk and it involved undercover reporters and Everyone else was freaking out and I was like nobody's gonna care I mean, the Guardian may try to turn this into a piece or something, but like on us, they just didn't, you know, they got us saying naughty things and we'll go over them but they're just not that naughty, you know?

So I think the one thing is just nobody cares about this type of stuff anymore. That and the

Simone Collins: other thing is I think that organizations like Hope Not Hate, especially given their tactic [00:02:00] of supposedly infiltrating using their undercover operatives extremist far right groups, as they like to put it by doing that, I think they were trying to reveal this.

Just under the surface, pervasive and blatant white nationalist cabal in both the United States and the U. K. and Europe. And, It just, I don't think it just, it just doesn't really exist. It's not really a thing. And what the yeah, continue in that show that I've still, I'm just finishing up in the good fight where there is this sort of, this Trump derangement show that really shows inside the ID of someone who has Trump derangement syndrome in their final season in season six, there are these protests, sort of the trucker protests or they're trying to depict.

But they take place in Chicago for some reason and they literally have these groups of khaki clad white men running through the streets with burning tiki torches chanting, you will not replace us. And they just are doing it. Like, , Juno. Yes. And, you know, there's this [00:03:00] like a troop of runners that are constantly going around. They look like the Juno runners and they're just sort of like running around all the time throughout Chicago with their little tiki torches saying you will not replace us.

And I feel like that's what hope not hate was trying to reveal is like they're everywhere and they're evil and they're just under the surface and they're saying all these things and we're going to show you we're going to expose it and then they spend two years once again because they did this in the U.

S. for a while and now they were doing it in Europe trying to expose these hateful racist Nazis and they just aren't

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I think that that was one of the problems that they ran into is that these people don't really exist except on the fringe. And certainly not in the core of the movement. However I, I will say that a lot of people.

In private. And, and this was the other thing that I really took away from this meeting is a lot of people will ask Simone and Malcolm, why are you the people running the pronatalist movement? Like, why are [00:04:00] you the most prominent voices? We should find somebody else. You know, we should find somebody who's more normal or more, you know, they, they want somebody more in line with their version of whatever they think it should be.

Maybe somebody who's more open to HBD stuff. Some, maybe somebody who's more Classically, theologically conservative or even someone

Simone Collins: who's more progressive. Like we get attacked from all angles of why we're either too conservative or too progressive or not religious enough or too religious.

Malcolm Collins: I think that this particular reporter showed not just why we have risen within the movement as we have, but why it makes sense for the movement to continue to double down on us being the central figures was that.

We, you and I, were alone, in private, with somebody who was saying they would give money to our foundation, with somebody who was signaling themselves to be incredibly racist, with somebody who I was [00:05:00] drunk,, and we'd just

Simone Collins: taken an overnight red eye flight in economy from the US to the UK.

Yes. We just landed that morning. And they didn't

Malcolm Collins: give me alcohol, which fortunately I built a degree of immunity to. People are like, why do you do this? Because they can't get me. Can't

Simone Collins: get me. Oh my gosh. It's like that scene in Indiana Jones where there's the drinking contest and you know, she pretends to be progressively drunk, but she just gets up in the end and starts cleaning up.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That is, that is exactly what happened. So, but I, I feel like. In that scenario, I rolled Nat 20s with this reporter. I was rolling Nat 20s on Charisma Checks all night. I, I was a character completely statted into Charisma.

Speaker 5: Oh, what'd you put your ability points on, by the way? .

Speaker 6: I put mine into charisma. Oh,

Speaker 5: yeah. Charisma's important. Yeah. What'd you put the rest on?

Speaker 6: Charisma.

Speaker 5: Yeah, like, obviously, out of your 20 starting ability points, you put some into charisma.

And then you put some into, like, constitution and [00:06:00] strength?

Speaker 6: Charisma, baby.

 You put them all into charisma?

Speaker 6: Hell yeah.

Malcolm Collins: because I think it would, it's very, very hard. to talk about these types of issues in ways that do not come back and bite other people in the butt.

And I think often our supporters may not understand the full 4D chess calculation that's at play. particularly around things like human biodiversity, for example, like they're like, Oh, why are you guys always pushing that? There really aren't that big of genetic differences between ethnic groups. Why don't you ever air any statistics to the contrary, et cetera.

And the, the. Core end of the day is, is one, the data just isn't that strong. You can go to any of our episodes on this, so it's not worth having this fight. But even if the data was strong, if we were the type of people who succumb to those susceptibilities, our fans aren't just basement [00:07:00] 4chan. You know, dwellers, right?

Like I love you 4chan people. But what I mean is there's this group of people in the comments and there's this group of people who has time all day to spend online. And they don't really think about, Oh, what happens when my boss at McKinsey comes to me and he said, Hey, you, you said you support those pronatalist guys.

Did you know that they're going around saying that There's significant, IQ differences between ethnic groups that are completely genetic. Like, do you support that? Do you believe that? This is the type of thing that someone can lose their job over. And I think that a lot of people don't really consider The damage that can be done around stuff like this.

And I think that this article for us showed anybody who was hesitant. And I think that a lot of people have been hesitant about permanently attaching themselves to the pronatalist movement publicly because they don't know what crazy off the rails thing is going to happen to the movement. That's going to fly back and hit them, right?

Like that's, that's a huge fear, especially people [00:08:00] with big public followings have around the pronatalist movement. And this undercover piece. I think brings those people a lot of comfort because they're like, Oh, they're not just out there publicly saying we are extremely, extremely careful not to cross certain lines.

But they structure their entire lives in private when they're drunk, when the only other person in the room is signaling that they're a big racist, when that person is offering to give the money. They do not get tripped up. They do not even in terms of sympathy. And it's so easy to do when you're in the room with someone and you don't want to make them feel uncomfortable.

And you just say something like, well, you know, maybe you're right about that, or maybe you're right about that. That we didn't succumb to any of that, nor, and this is something, I don't know how many of our like super famous friends or, or well resourced friends watch every episode of the show or an episode like this one.

Or did we drop a single name? So [00:09:00] it's not just that we keep your names out of our mouse on this show. Also in private, when we're talking to people, we don't use your names. In fact, even when Simone and I are talking not in private, we use code words for all of our famous friends. Because we don't want to be accidentally picked up on a phone or accidentally picked up by a table next to us or accidentally.

Simone Collins: So we are, Oh, you've been picked up by like the smart devices in our home. We just assume because at this point you really should between AI and I feel like he could do like a search. Yeah. Yeah. Any, anyone should assume that they could be recorded at any point. I think that I was recently looking at research that.

found that I think you could use Wi Fi to find out where people are within a house like it can use it to see sort of where signals are bouncing off humans in a house, which is insane. So don't ever assume you can be safe or hidden unless you're in some kind of crazy secure venue that we can all see occasionally [00:10:00] on Zillogon Wild, which is Wonderful.

But let's let's go to the core of the claim or attack on us in the article because I do think that that's something that has come up frequently and attacks, not just of us, but of the pronatalist movement at large. And it's something that I think needs to be addressed very clearly and head on because it is very inaccurate yet pervasive and persistent and original accusations of us.

In many ways, I think, have been dropped because we've just so resoundingly addressed them. Perhaps we haven't resoundingly addressed. This element of, of the criticism. Well,

Malcolm Collins: I, I, the, the, the polygenics versus eugenics argument is what you want to talk about?

Simone Collins: No. So the, the, the core of the thing that I'm arguing about is that, that they imply that we only want certain people, the right people to be having kids.

But that's

Malcolm Collins: true.

Simone Collins: Well, we want people who care about the future to have kids.

Malcolm Collins: Pro natalism, [00:11:00] yeah, but I think that pro natalism for everyone is fundamentally a bad idea. You know, in the New York Times, when they recently did a piece on us, and they're like, they want to force everyone to have kids, and we're like, absolutely not.

You can look at, like, our Dinks video,

Speaker 8: We're Dinks. We get into snobby hobbies like skiing and golfing. We're Dinks. We can go to Florida on a whim. We're Dinks. We're already planning our European vacation next year. Dinks.

Malcolm Collins: And I'm like, look. From a genetic standpoint, dinks probably shouldn't be having kids. They seem to be pretty low. So pro sociality, pretty high narcissism. From a, a being a good parents, dinks shouldn't have kids from a cultural standpoint, dinks shouldn't have kids.

Yeah, but they're not implying

Simone Collins: that they're, they're in fact implying. Basically the opposite. They're basically implying that we think that only white, wealthy people should be having kids. And I definitely don't

Malcolm Collins: imply that they definitely, yeah. So I'll go over the claims that are made and the specific things they got us for on camera.

Because they do have a camera, they've got like a camera of Simone talking . That was you. Oh, that was my voice?

Simone Collins: Yeah. You were

Malcolm Collins: [00:12:00] the biggest. Actually, I'm not watching the clip. So the big, the big thing they caught us on where they're like, Oh, Oh, we got them on something big.

Well there was two, one was actually pretty interesting that they put in here. Was it, I have gone to the Bohemian Grove. that, you know, we talk about, it's pretty publicly known that somebody needs to be managing director of dialogue, which was founded by a secret society founded by Peter Thiel. And we've done some other secret society work for like this Futures Foundation.

But that I haven't been publicly tied to the Bohemian Grove before because legally I couldn't publicly talk about it. And so now I can only publicly say what they. Caught me in in a private interview, I guess, which is I have been. So that's something which I actually don't mind being public.

It's, it, it adds more credibility to some of the other things I say I know about where people are like, Oh, he definitely doesn't know about that stuff. He, he can't possibly be that well connected. And then they're like, Oh, he is actually that well connected. So, that was one thing. And then the, the other thing.

Was that we [00:13:00] said, well, we go out and we talk to reporters and we say stuff like, you know, we want to help everyone. But in reality, you know, we try to focus on the elites, unfortunately. And I said, unfortunately, here I was rolling full twenties that night, I E you know, and what we said in the response to them was.

What do you expect? Like you, we have a limited amount of money. You, do you really think we can have the same amount of impact by talking to like four homeless people in Ohio, instead of talking to like policymakers in DC or at major tech firms? And that is true. That is an angle to it. We talk specifically to the elites because the elites have influence.

But this idea that, like, we want the very best within society to, to disproportionately have more kids. Where you draw the line at best is obviously a variable thing. And the way that we draw it right now, which was the way that Simone was making this point, is to say that we want this line to be A voluntary line for people who opt into this [00:14:00] stuff.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That it's, that we want people who want kids to have kids. That we, we don't think people who don't want kids or who aren't in a good position to have kids should have kids. And I think there's this feeling, like, To make prenatalism fair, you should force everyone to have kids. But then again, that's obviously evil.

So we're both kind of accused of coercing people into having kids, but then we're also accused of not coercing people into have kids. Does that make sense to you? I feel like that's happening though. Like how dare you not be dragging these people? Yeah. Yeah. How dare you?

Malcolm Collins: You're right. You're right.

That's a good point. The New York times just did a piece where it was like, How, how dare you be trying to force everyone to have kids? And then these guys just did another attack on us, which was how dare you not force everyone to have kids? Exactly. So we're being

Simone Collins: accused of both. And I just, I want to make it so clear that we do think and, and this is actually, [00:15:00] so something that they first, before this article came out, they emailed us last week saying, we are going to publish something on you.

Here are the allegations we're going to make. Do you, you know, do you want to respond to any of these? And we actually responded to quite a few things that ultimately didn't make it into the article because I think they, they ultimately discovered through our responses, perhaps that they were making really weak claims, but 1 of their claims was elitism that we only want.

Very specific types of people and that we only think you know that the the another they do refer to it in this article That we're calvinists and we only think the elect will matter And very few people matter in the largest

Malcolm Collins: claim that they are an organization that promotes religious tolerance and yet and this isn't even like one of our weird techno puritan things This is just common across all the calvinist traditions.

They attack us in this article without mentioning You really that this is a normal Calvinist thing [00:16:00] to believe the concept of the elect and that before you were born, it's sort of predetermined because we believe in a predetermined history. We believe in timeline determinism whether or not you will be a person who matters in life.

And they tried to play Our theological belief in a deterministic reality as a belief in genetic determinism.

Simone Collins: Well, they also try to connect the fact that we target elites in our marketing campaigns and in our influence campaigns, because obviously these are the people affecting policy, affecting culture, et cetera, which is where we have to place pressure to raise awareness about demographical apps with our philosophy around who matters and who doesn't.

So what they're trying to do with this article is imply that. Because we put our focus on elites in our, in our tactics and campaigns. That therefore we also think elites are the only ones who are predestined to matter and I take umbrage to that right. That is not fair.

Malcolm Collins: That's just like smart spending of resources [00:17:00] versus what I can

Simone Collins: say, but we would also argue that many of the very same elites that we target.

ultimately are not people who are predestined to matter because they choose to not inherit the future. They choose to not make a difference in the world. They choose to not do this. And many people who certainly don't fall under our purview in terms of people we think are worth our time to target, because currently their impact on the future, or at least in terms of current their impact on current policy and current culture, is Is very limited.

They are still going to be absolutely people who matter because they are going to be ones who have kids and raise them in intergenerational and durable cultures. And those are the people who matter. So there's a big difference between someone who today is elite and capable of influencing how demographic collapse plays out and someone who today in the future is not elite is not really going to influence the Today's culture or today's policy, but who's still going to very much matter a ton in the future.

Does that make sense?

Malcolm Collins: I think a better way to understand [00:18:00] this concept is with the difference and we explain this difference to them in our reply to them They didn't really get into it here because they want to accuse us of being eugenicist and we just definitionally aren't you can go to the wikipedia definition of eugenicist and I think that this is where the concept of a polygenesis versus a eugenicist is a very important dichotomy that individuals within this movement and community should understand so that they understand where they fall in terms of how do you deal with dysgenic selection.

And there is really only, Two courses polygenics or eugenics and they are very very very very very different courses and they are both offensive They are both evil. So we're not saying oh, we're the non evil ones because we're the polygenesis There's actually a lot wrong with polygenics but you ultimately have to choose one of two solutions.

Otherwise the species heads towards extinctions and I love that some people on our podcast will be like, oh You You know, they think they're so [00:19:00] smart, you know, talking about dysgenics, like, how are they to say that it's actually a bad thing that low IQ is being selected for? I mean, if it's what is genetically working, then it's a good thing because it's genetically working.

Well, Not really. If you are a sane thinking individual, you can do things like plot out. What role is AI going to have in the economy in 100 years? What's the chance that our species will survive 1000 years if this particular selective pressure is on us for the next 100 or 200 years? And I can say, oh, it goes down dramatically or to almost zero.

You know, and and they can be like, well, Okay, I guess you can exercise a little bit of a like, like, like thought on this. It's just a stupid argument. It's something that like, I can see it makes sense in like a high school context. If you like, think you're like two high schoolers arguing against each other, I was just like, well, you're actually the arrogant one to think that like low IQ isn't helpful.

And it's like, bro, bro, bro, we're [00:20:00] talking about like, How do we survive long term of the species? And that means becoming interplanetary. That means not being dominated and wiped out by AI. That means not going the Eloy Morlock route. What, you know, HTML is a time machine. You, it matters not becoming stupid.

Idiocracy, Can happen. Now you should watch our our video on the idiocracy thing demonetized by the way even mentioning the science around this I love that they only pulled on one of our studies from that And they're like the people who wrote the study showing iq is dropping by 0. 1 points per year They argue it's actually due to this other effect.

And it's like yeah, of course, they did their mainstream academics They're not going to be able to say you can also look at the companies that look at the IQ correlates to polygenic factors within large data sets Like I think the Greenland data set and see that it's decreasing over time or that is also directly tied to low fertility But okay ignoring all of that If you have dysgenics in a population and as they said in this piece, and as we sent a reply to them, you get dysgenics in a [00:21:00] population as soon as like, when did it start to get really, really bad in humans?

Well, one, there's a great study that was done by a team that showed Actually, you always get dysgenic, some level of dysgenics at the height of a civilization. So the polygenic markers that were associated with high educational attainment today, if we look at Roman burial graves from before the height of the empire, they were unusually high.

And then they start to decrease to much lower levels in the surrounding areas as the empire reached its peak, which of course makes sense. You know, you, you, when you live in a super abundant environment, you're not going to have the same environmental pressure of selecting. At you, but then it got really, really bad when we went from an environment where 50 percent of kids died before the age of one to one where almost nobody dies before the age of one, because that's where you just get like random, like genetic damage being carried over.

Like evolution stops working or even maintaining what it's built when nobody dies.

Simone Collins: That's. Which is a good thing. It just means that we [00:22:00] need to introduce different Different medical treatments to account for the fact that now, rather through death we need to weed out deadly traits through other means.

Malcolm Collins: So this then leads to a problem, which is if you have a real dysgenic effect within a population and which they

Simone Collins: also in the article argue that dysgenics is not a real term and that real geneticists don't believe in it. What they basically meant is

Malcolm Collins: real geneticists know they're not supposed to say it, but like everybody who's like broadly saying knows low IQ is being selected for right now.

And us making this point makes us no more like radicals than Mike judge you know, who did, by the way, idiocracy and Beavis and butthead and office, what was it? The Silicon Valley office space.

Simone Collins: Oh, no. So it was just called Silicon Valley.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah, he did office space too. So yeah, we're at that level where we're just pointing out like a basic scientific [00:23:00] reality that if you don't believe it, you're just, it's a religion that's driving you to believe that because it's not like even a scientific reality that's particularly difficult to find out or measure or track.

Again, you can see our, our, can we become an idiocracy episode? But anyway, so, They, they, if you do have dysgenics in a population, there's really only two realistic pathways you can go down in an attempt to address the dysgenics. One is eugenics, and what eugenics is, is saying, well, we need to, at the level of social policy or society, or mass shaming, on average, force people to make more genetically healthy decisions.

And we see this as evil and coercive. The alternate pathway is to say well I refuse to coerce anyone. Okay, and I know that I cannot Persuade the vast majority of people to [00:24:00] make, you know, healthy choices, basically and therefore I need to Create an opt in community for the individuals and the cultures and the families who do want to practice You forms of you know, genetic hygiene whether that is polygenic selection or whether that is just the roommate selection or whether that is You know, there's all sorts of forms of this and that's the pathway that we have gone down And as we have pointed out in our other talks to us elite are the people who show up but the problem is that the The people who are smart and forward thinking and think, you know, on a hundred year timeframes, they often also are people who are economically and career successful.

So there is going to be some overlap between what people would think of the traditional economic elite and the types of people we see as quote unquote elite because they recognize real problems and are trying to create solutions to them. But for us, this is really a coalition of the willing. And we point out there, we're like, and [00:25:00] eventually if we are successful at this, this is.

This could lead to speciation or it really needs to, if we don't bring everyone on board. And of course they saw this as a super offensive point, but it is just a point that needs to be like laid out. I don't even think they mentioned it in the article or speciation comment.

Simone Collins: They included that among their claims that they planned on publishing.

And then I think after we explained what we meant or had them think through?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, basically what I told them is look when I say that speciation may have to happen I am saying that we may not be able to convince everyone to do this voluntarily and we refuse to coerce people That's how speciation happens.

Yes, you kind of ruined

Simone Collins: the fun of it

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I was like I was like, what you are accusing us of is saying, how dare you not force everyone into your ideology? Because that is the scenario in which speciation happens.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that yeah, that just made it less fun for them.

Simone Collins: Well, I think the problem is think people don't think through the [00:26:00] implications of, I guess, not adhering to what we're arguing or what we advocate for.

They think that, you know, if we, for whatever reason don't force people to get involved or we, I don't know.

Malcolm Collins: Just like, if it's not, but I mean, there is something offensive about polygenics, which is that it does lead to a presumption of speciation. Eugenics assumes you're going to bring everyone along.

Polygenics or everyone who you don't sterilize, I suppose, all surviving humans. But while polygenics assumes that Some people are going to be left behind because you're not going to force them or put a gun to their head or use social pressure on them.

Simone Collins: Yeah, well, I mean, and in general, I think our movement is when anyone attacks us, they're just not really thinking through the implications of what they're arguing for versus what we're arguing for.

Because if, for example, no 1 tried to intervene with regard to demographic collapse. Again, I Things like [00:27:00] gender equality and high levels of educational attainment technophilia would all be kind of under threat Way more than they are

Malcolm Collins: basic things that they claim they care about if Environmentalism, yeah communities today that are having lots of kids.

Okay if they end up creating the dominant cultural groups of far human future, the things that you act like you care about, like gay people and trans people, they will not be allowed to exist in the future. Like you can just run the numbers. And, and I think that there's this denialism of this obvious reality.

Simone Collins: Yeah. ,

Malcolm Collins: I really like, How all the compliments they have for us in here.

Simone Collins: Yeah. They, their wording is so flattering. The best known activists in the transatlantic perinatal scene are Malcolm and Simone Collins, former tech workers and venture capitalists. They're now the defective spoke. de facto spokespeople for the pernatalist movement and have landed coverage in an impressive number of publications in the [00:28:00] UK, the U S and Canada.

In September, 2024, the Collins has appeared in the pages of the wall street journal and a broadcast of NBC news. They have previously been profiled by the guardian, the telegraph business insider vice and Piers Morgan on his talk TV show. It's just so funny. I spoke last night. At a Republican fundraiser in our area, I was given a very warm welcome, you know, as, as, as a speaker and a candidate, it didn't come close to this level of flattering.

This is, this is a hit piece. What on earth? No, hold on. Go further. Keep reading. They argue for the pronatalist cause. And their media appearances, books, podcasts, shows, and dinners they organize with transatlantic tech entrepreneurs, C suite executives, and politicians. Simone is now running on a pronatalist platform in the Pennsylvania state elections for the Republican Party this November.

She is contesting the district election. 150, which sits in Montgomery County. And also, although is currently held [00:29:00] by a Democrat, was Republican until 2019. Simone and Malcolm have a sharp understanding of the media ecosystem. They speak in quotable soundbites and present themselves as amusing eccentrics.

They talk, for instance, about the year of the harvest . When in 2018, the couple underwent IVF and their embryos frozen. Simone has joked with reporters that she wants to keep having kids until her uterus is forcibly removed. So far, the Collinses have four children and plan on a dozen.

I really should just give people this excerpt from this hit piece on us. This

Malcolm Collins: is this is why we should be running things because this is the way. Our opponents see us as they're like, well, they're very eloquent and they're really good at not stepping on

Simone Collins: landmines. But then here they do the classic thing that pretty much anyone who leans to the left does when trying to cover pronatalism from a non charitable view, which is to say.

These people believe in pronatalism. You know, who else believed in pronatalism? [00:30:00] Nazis, because the next section,

Malcolm Collins: the communists in the, in, in that era, when it was fascist versus communist versus capitalist, the communists were more pronatalist than the Nazis had actual pronatalist campaigns in their countries.

I know,

Simone Collins: like, No, no, no, no, no, don't, don't throw Marxism under the bus. . But here's, here's what they do. And, and this is just so classic in terms of how this movement is attacked. And it's so annoying because it's like, You know who also ate food?

You know, the Collins's eat food. Hitler also ate food. Like, you can't do that. But they're like, key to understanding prenatalism is demographic collapse. The idea that an imminent crisis awaits society when women have fewer babies. This was captured best by Spearhead, a magazine founded by John Tyndall, a British neo Nazi who once led the National Front and the British National Party.

Okay, what? This was captured best by a Nazi who is like,

Malcolm Collins: it's so bizarre. They literally, they seem to like, know more about [00:31:00] Nazis than we do. Like, I don't know this person. I don't know. I genuinely think that they have a better understanding of Nazi, like a modern Nazi ideology. Then you don't think

Simone Collins: that you know that because we don't really know much about Nazi ideology.

I have

Malcolm Collins: this far right stuff, like despite what they want to believe. I don't know. Any of this ecosystem where they're like, Ooh, we tied you to, I remember they were like, Oh, Richard Spencer went to an event where you were talking. It was one of the things they mentioned here. It's like, I don't control over who shows up when I'm speaking.

Like, what do you want me to do? Like start screaming and run off the stage or like pull out a gun and start shooting. I'm like, everybody get down. Hot crime. I like hot crime. I don't know him by his face. I don't even know him by his name. It's the most generic name I've ever heard. He needs a better name if he wants to be that inflammatory.

Yeah, you'd think

Simone Collins: that like people went around with like, a sign that says like neo Nazi. So you would at least know, you know, just so that you [00:32:00] could make sure it doesn't rub off on you. You know, just in case.

Malcolm Collins: It's like the bubonic plague broke out and they're like nailing the doors closed. They're like, Sagar, everyone here, it's like the Crimson Party or whatever that famous short story is called.

What short story am I thinking of?

Simone Collins: I don't know, actually.

Malcolm Collins: It was about the bubonic plague, anyway. So, the, the People will be saying in the comments. Oh, you idiots. How could you not know this famous work? Anyway, so I also love that where they were able to get like really Offensive stuff from us was from screen grabbing our title cards because we always use like clickbaity title card That aren't what we actually talk about in the episode.

So one, that was only a few episodes old was the episode where the title card said, Protecting Education with Jewish Technology.

Simone Collins: Which was It showed like, flames in the background. So I think they, they just didn't watch the episode and assumed it was anti Semitic or something.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the whole episode is about how yeshivas are a good education system and we should borrow from them to better [00:33:00] protect our own education systems.

And I love, like, we have anti semitic, like, like some people who watch this are anti semitic, right? And they got, they got all mad at that. They're like, why, you know, Jews are the people who started all of this destruction within our academic system. And it's like, okay, first of all, that's not true.

But like, even if you take this perspective. Then why would you not be paying careful attention to how the Jews are differentially doing education and do it that way? Because apparently they're the architects around all of this. So why not borrow that cultural technology that they have purportedly been using in their master plot for years?

It's an incredibly pro Jewish episode. Anybody who actually watches our episodes know that there's actually A greater claim to be made that we are offensively filial Semitic and, and Zionist. Because I am absolutely Zionist. I believe very strongly in the state of Israel's right to exist. I'm sorry, what I should say is the, is the right of the.

Jewish people to reclaim their [00:34:00] ancestral lands from colonizers and then to defend the ancestral tribal land that they reclaimed from the colonizing groups that by the way, destroyed their monuments and create. It's so funny that like, unironically, the same progressive will be like, look at Rushmore, how disgusting that they would.

Chisel this in the, in the wall, you know, their, their national pride of the presidents and the wall of this historic, like spiritually important mountain to this tribe, tribal group. And then they like, look at the dome of the rock on top of the old temple and they're like, yes, this is right and good.

And the Jewish people should not be able to, to rebuild this, even though they control the land. They should be getting no props for not rebuilding this. Actually I might want to do a tweet on that particular subject. Sorry. Because that is actually a horrific thing that like people don't think about.

So what are some of the other title calls here? Oh, yes gay islam and birth rates we're very pro islam in that episode That's the episode [00:35:00] where we talk started off and being like a lot of muslims have a really good head on this but like Not all muslims are pro gay Especially the ones who are in Hamas do the, like, gays for Gaza people not understand that, like, everybody who supported them in the region has already been killed?

Like, and that's another thing that I think they don't, like, a lot of progressives don't get is that Hamas, when they're like, what about the innocent people there? And it's like, Yeah. Hamas went around killing them. Like that already happened. There's not that many left. But anyway, what do you, what I mean is you can look at the polls around like supportive Hamas and more of October seven supportive you know, abuse of the hostages among the general population and the numbers are just like crazy high.

Simone Collins: Well, I think in terms of

Malcolm Collins: these days,

Simone Collins: larger takeaways is that.

Malcolm Collins: Hold on. We got to do the last one here, which was the title card for should women be allowed to own money? Women with money don't have kids.

Simone Collins: And this one, of course, I chose to post that and not the one of trad wives or [00:36:00] progressive conspiracy.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But I, I love that they did post that one because they, they, then they then quote me in it where I'm like, well, it does turn out that if we did remove, if women had less money, they'd probably have more kids. But they don't put the, but that doesn't mean that we should give them less money line, you know, immediately.

Yeah. After that but okay, Simone, you wanted to wrap this up.

Simone Collins: I think the bigger point is that this is not a problem for us because of a couple of things. And I think this is just, I think a good proof point for other general advice that we give to a lot of people that I think a lot of people want to discount.

One being that you should have very clear virtues, but also very clear vices. People should know what's wrong with you. And you should be very open about what's wrong with you because It's going to come out eventually

Malcolm Collins: horrible elitist. I mean, we've always, yeah, that

Simone Collins: we're elitists and that we yeah, primarily that we're elitist and we believe in genes.

And are very open about that and that we're weird that we're like, that [00:37:00]

Malcolm Collins: would come out of this for me, if I was somebody watching us or interested in potentially donating to the pronatalist cause or getting more involved in the pronatalist cause or saying, Oh, let's see if I can platform them on a more mainstream platform.

This to me, I see is sort of like our public test. People got to see in the most extreme conditions. What are we going to say? Like, is there going to be a moment? Because this was a huge thing for the tea party where it turned out at one point that a lot of the people who were in leadership positions in the tea party, they got alone was reporters and they started going like hog wild, racist, conspiracy, antisemitic.

Is one day something like that going to come out on us? And I think that this was a pretty good test that no, that's not going to happen. And I think that this is a very interesting thing. When we did the episode that was contrasting the new right movement IE, all these tech, quote unquote elites that are moving into the right wing media space.

Are they going to explode in the same [00:38:00] way the Tea Party did? And I think one of the core things that led to the explosion and dissolution of the Tea Party, as well as the first base platform that supported Trump, is that these people were just not as not, they, they, Were actually under the table, like super racist, super antisemitic, super.

And, and them being exposed for that was always just a matter of time. Going to tolerate that.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but this is the second point that I want to make, which is that a lot of people I know are really big on protecting their privacy and they don't want people to know their views publicly. And the thing is.

That can come out and we were targeted without our knowledge by an undercover journalist, but it's not a problem with us because we didn't say anything to him that honestly, we would not have said to a journalist who just told us they were journalists from the beginning. We really didn't. And that's why this is not bad for us.

And I would just encourage people to maybe rethink [00:39:00] their strategy about, Oh, I have to be super private and super, you know, cause one it's very stressful and the people I know who are really. Beg on maintaining their privacy or not having certain opinions of theirs be aired publicly seem very stressed, very uptight.

And like, just, I feel like their lifespan is going to be shorter. They have more gray hairs. It's just really stressed. It's like, it's like trying to keep a lie and they're not lying. Obviously they're just trying to protect a private part of their lives. But to me, it just seems to have a really high cost.

But then I would also just argue that things like this can happen to you. We're not the only people who are affected in this whole thing, and there may be people who are hurt a lot more than this because they've chosen to take very private chances. I think

Malcolm Collins: that the people who are getting hurt by this or that will be hurt by this are people who we have privately had arguments with saying, you need to back off from this HBD stuff.

You need to back off from this HBD stuff. It's going to blow up in your face. [00:40:00] And they are like, you guys just. you know, engage with everything engage with everything. They're they're manateeing it which is a joke from South Park where you take one idea ball out of the tank and the manatees can't do anything.

Speaker 10: Family Guy is written by manatees?

Speaker 12: Of course, it all makes sense now. You see, the right side of the tank is filled with idea balls. . The manatees choose an idea ball and swim it over to the joke combine on the other side of the tank. Pull just one idea ball out of the idea tank, and the manatees stop working. Here, I'll show you. Alright,

alright, put it back in.

Malcolm Collins: And I'm like, look, we're in an existential fight for the species when it comes to fertility rates or dysgenics.

You don't approve. Well, too bad. We're in this for the species, boys and girls..

Malcolm Collins: And, It's just not worth engaging in certain topics right now. And there, there will be [00:41:00] consequences if you continue to go down this pathway. And everybody was like, no, no, no, I've already publicly stood for this.

I'm not going to go back on this. I'm not going to, you know, and I'm like, well, you really should. But I think, I don't know if I agree with you,

Simone Collins: Simone.

You think some people should stay private? Some people have to stay private by the nature of their work, so I understand that. But if you don't, then

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I also don't know if I agree with you in saying that the way we would around any sort of a friend or something like that. We choose our words very carefully. So the person that we are talking to often will know the intent of what we are trying to say. Well, not actually saying anything that's particularly offensive.

Simone Collins: Well, maybe you have the sophistication to do that. I just say the same thing in front of everyone, but I guess that gets us in trouble like that time when a journalist was like, Hey, can you like explain what your critics say of you and their words? And [00:42:00] I'm like, Oh yes, they say this. And I had to keep

Malcolm Collins: interrupting you.

And I was like, why are you doing this? It's the worst idea ever.

Simone Collins: I love you, Malcolm. And I'm glad that this wasn't bad.

 Did you see the email I forwarded you of the van, the voter services van?

Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah. It's so sketchy. Is it still obvious that they're like It's so obvious. Sorry. What she's talking about is in our district now.

Now they have a giant van that goes around. And what does it do? It keeps the vote and ultra secure zip. It registers

Simone Collins: people to vote. It can accept provisional ballots. I think it accepts mail in ballots as well. And you can register to vote through mail, like for mail in ballots. So yeah, they're basically just going, going around getting,

Malcolm Collins: I see they're not even trying anymore.

Like anyone, Oh my God.

Microphone (Wireless Microphone Rx): If you want to share this article, I have attached an archive link to it. So you don't give them. Traffic to support more of their efforts. , and,

You have to check out this absolutely wild place in your house called [00:43:00] Arnold's family fund center that felt so out of the nineties, it felt just like being at a five nights, Fridays. And I loved it

Speaker 15: are you helping Titan buckle her seatbelt?

 You