The United States and Ukraine have had a long, complicated history that has been defined by just as much partnership and collaboration as hesitation and disagreement. This dynamic is laid bare in the 7-part podcast series ‘Escalation,’ produced by our partners at Goat Rodeo, with the national security publication Lawfare. In April 2025, The International Spy Museum hosted a panel discussion on the Washington-Kyiv relationship moderated by SpyCast host Sasha Ingber, and featuring Ukrainian journalist Anastasiia Lapatina, Lawfare’s Managing Editor Tyler McBrien, Retired Brigadier General Kipling Kahler, and former National Security Council spokesperson Emily Horne.

To listen to the whole Escalation series, visit:

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/podcasts-multimedia/podcast/escalation

Prefer to watch your podcasts? Find us on YouTube at https://www.youtube.com/@IntlSpyMuseum/podcasts.

Subscribe to Sasha's Substack, HUMINT, to get more intelligence stories: https://sashaingber.substack.com/

And if you have feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by E-mail at SpyCast@Spymuseum.org.

This show is brought to you from Goat Rodeo, Airwave, and the International Spy Museum in Washington, DC.

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