Justice, Outrage, and Moral Dilemmas in the Face of Injustice

In this episode, we explore the horrifying and prolonged issue of grooming gangs involving Pakistani immigrants in the UK. We delve into the extensive networks of perpetrators, the victims' stories, and the shocking inaction by authorities. We discuss the cultural and systemic factors contributing to this crisis and critique the political and social structures that have allowed these atrocities to continue unchallenged. The episode also covers public and governmental responses, media coverage disparities, the influence of prominent figures like Elon Musk in bringing attention to the issue, and potential future outcomes.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone! Today we are going to be talking about grooming gangs! Because while this is not new news, or it should not be new news, because it's been going on for quite a while there have been extensive networks of grooming gangs of Pakistani immigrants within the UK. Where they would take young girls and What's the word here?

S A them? You know, it's basically like,

Speaker 3: He's snatching your people up, trying to rape them, so y'all need to hide your kids, hide your wife, and hide your hood, because they raping everybody out here.

Simone Collins: Yeah, well, no, basically, basically what had happened was starting in the early ish 2010s, this became a more pervasive practice. Basically, an industry arose when selling hard drugs became a little bit too criminally dangerous.

So what instead started to happen was, Was the flourishing and growth of the purchase and sale of sexual services. But in a very not good way in [00:01:00] that these communities and this, this is one of those things where, okay crimes. Tend to, I've noticed in terms of crimes that have been committed against us.

They, they tend to meme their way through often cultural or ethnic communities. Like just, just, I think like careers do too, you know, like suddenly, you know, everyone's a doctor and like, you had

Malcolm Collins: a huge reason for it to meme its way through this community because the police weren't doing anything about it.

And yes, well,

Simone Collins: but anyway, like I would just say. Let's point out that like there are lots of weird, like kind of, esoteric crimes that do tend to be culturally siloed, not just because you're Pakistani or whatever could be because you're Italian or because you're Irish or because I'm sorry, Simona,

Malcolm Collins: I have a literally, and I mean this literally, I have never heard of widespread grape gangs that were not this one particular,

Simone Collins: no, I'm referring to like completely random different types of crimes.

Like, Remember in the travel agency world? No, but

Malcolm Collins: the [00:02:00] point I'm making is that it counters the point you're making, okay?

Simone Collins: I

Malcolm Collins: understand, you're right, it is true that sometimes a crime idea will meme its way through one particular ethnic, religious, or cultural community. And you are attempting to say that is how this particular practice spread within this community.

The counterpoint I am making is I had literally not heard of widespread grape gangs outside of this one particular community ever. And yet I find it within the countries where this religion is practiced frequently, and I find it within the communities that immigrate from this country. And that's because

Simone Collins: it correlates with a cultural dehumanization of women.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Yeah, but I'm just pointing out here. It's not like an accident that there was a question. No,

Simone Collins: it's not an accident. And I think there's an interesting discussion to be had there. But at any rate, this became sort of a meme within this community when other sorts of crime and money making amongst we'll say free [00:03:00] radicals, like sort of, Young men especially, but also like, like live, like married men with jobs in the community were getting involved in this started doing this.

And what would happen is you'd get like the, the sourcing happened with young men, often like starting to date women who were sometimes like middle class normal, like women in the UK, but often, more often like lower class down and out, like struggling young women. And they would give them, they would love bomb them, give them tons of attention.

Underage

Malcolm Collins: women. Underage

Simone Collins: women. And then be like, Oh, by the way, you could start making some money if you sleep with this older, attractive guy. But then like, then, then this like slippery slope of life.

Malcolm Collins: No, no. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll get into how they did it, but like, just to understand the scope of this so it's estimated that around 1, 400 children were sexually exploited in this way.

And just Potterham between 1997 and 2013 to understand. How little the police responded to this. The only persecutions were five men in Rotter ham in [00:04:00] 2010. 11 men in durva Shire in 2010. Between 2008 and 2010, there were three men. convicted in Cornwall in 2012, nine men from Rotteschild and Alderham and 2013, seven men from Oxford.

And that's it.

Simone Collins: And there were literal cases of, for example, case workers entering homes and seeing Girls beneath men in their bedrooms and they just walked out of the room like well nothing nothing to see here

Malcolm Collins: They also participated in the weddings and everything like that So if i'm going to go over a few individual instances here one victim known as sarah was kidnapped at the age of 15 forced to learn the quran She was forced to another victim was forced into islamic dress and only permitted to speak urdu or punjab another victim was forced into three sharia marriages during her 12 years in captivity.

This was someone who was captured at 15. Because some of these people were just kidnapped. In Bradford, a 14 year old [00:05:00] girl known as Anna was quote unquote married in a traditional Islamic wedding that was attended by a social worker. a 14 year old. So the, the, this is the thing that's really scandalous about this.

It's that social workers and the police were aware this was happening and were doing nothing because they did not like the, when we talk about the way that the urban monoculture dehumanizes people of some ethnicities and treats people of other ethnicities that have a being more worthy of human dignity.

Like it is genuinely a Very, very racist culture in the most traditional meaning of the word. I will add to that

Simone Collins: though. Yes. And it is also classist. And I know that there were some middle class young, young women who got caught up in this. But a lot of what was also going on was like, Oh, this like trashy girls sleeping around with guys.

Like, I don't know, ignore it. Like, what are we, what are we supposed to do? She's, you know, she's consenting to this. Like, she's just a trashy woman selling her body, you know, doing, getting into drugs and alcohol. That's why like a lot of these girls. [00:06:00] Terrible things are happening to them. They're showing up at the police station saying, help me.

And they're like, sober up and come back to us later with an adult. And then they go back out and get, you know, assaulted again. It, this is like, there is a classic angle to this

Malcolm Collins: where people ever, this is genuinely like what it was like in the South. During the period where, you know, if you were a white guy, you could just go out and grape black women and no one would care.

Like the black woman would go to the police and they'd be like, ha, ha, ha. That's the way things work now. And there was a a manga that came out recently in Japan that, that is making fun of this, which is like the UN has ordered. Um, people from what was it? Sub Saharan Africa. to, like, immigrate to Japan to replace them.

And it starts with his mom being graped and the police station being like, Oh, this is actually very common. We can't prosecute this, but, you know, they said what the people said in this case, which is, Well, I mean, her testimony isn't really reliable because [00:07:00] it's a person of the underclass ethnicity testifying against somebody of the overclass ethnicity.

And, and the, I think the, the Rotherham hand case shows without any shadow of a doubt that there is this genuine belief among this class of social workers and, and police that there is a, a, a deserving underclass citizen. Ethnicity and a deserving superior ethnicity and they do need to be treated differently and crimes should at scale be covered up Like I think for people who are like, oh no progressives aren't like that or like this isn't like a mainstream thing in our culture You can point to this and if they're like, well, they're not still like that Okay.

Well now that all of this has become like super super public information and progressives will say this is public information We'll go into evidence that it would not on January 8th, 2025. So recently the UK parliament voted on a conservative party amendment to the children's wellbeing and schools build, which called for a national inquiry into the grooming [00:08:00] gangs.

Now I would note here that a YouGov poll commission on this shows that 76 percent of people in the UK support this bill. Do you know how the votes broke down? 364 against the amendment, only 111 for the amendment.

Simone Collins: Oh my lord. Okay. That's embarrassing for them.

Malcolm Collins: No, but the point is like you live in the UK.

I can just imagine like almost everyone thinks this is a theory

Simone Collins: Yeah, our

Malcolm Collins: listeners who are like from pakistan are like emailing us. I mean like bro like in pakistan. This would be prosecuted

Simone Collins: Like this

insane Well, I I actually want to hear your argument on this because I think that Part of what's going on and part of why people who should have been speaking up about this were not.

Kind of could be your own arguments. Could be misused as justification for their actions. So hear me out on this. You have argued that, you know, [00:09:00] we should live in a pluralistic world where everyone's allowed to practice their own culture and you know, what happens in your house with your culture is up to you.

If you want to beat your kids, beat your kids. You know, and, and so what I think was happening with these social workers was a version of this gone terribly wrong. Listen, lady, your daughter has chosen to join this Pakistani man's culture. And yeah, she's married and yeah, she's pregnant now. And yeah, you say that he beats her, but like, that's their culture.

Malcolm Collins: So I would agree with that, but they're one under age and they are two from a different culture and three non consenting. And I think that this is the. I mean, that's where, like,

Simone Collins: so many of these girls, of course, were afraid of for their lives, right? Like, some of these girls even were, for example, prosecuted for pimping, because they were helping to source other young women for the men who, We're clearly threatening them.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, I know. I [00:10:00] love it. You can, you can prosecute the young white girl for pimping. Not the, but

Simone Collins: my point is that these girls were saying, I am doing this with consent. I am getting married with consent because there's, you know, they're, they're very afraid of what will happen if they don't. Play along, right?

At that point, you know, that they're, they're in so deep. They've been, they've been like,

Malcolm Collins: is it when you have a culture like one, you like just people should be aware. This is something that Muslim cultures do at a much higher frequency than other cultures. Yeah. And it's specifically a problem within Pakistani culture.

And that means that extra attention should be paid to these groups when UK. Well, like keep in mind the UK isn't like the U S for example, right? Like The UK is, like, actually the, the origin point of the British people, right? Like, they have a right to say other people shouldn't be coming into their country.

Other people shouldn't be, you know, like, [00:11:00] That's great. So

Simone Collins: if, are you trying to argue then that, like, a culture can be, like, Y'all can't come in because you're not part of my culture that that's you're

Malcolm Collins: practicing. And, and, and this is my

Simone Collins: city. You're not allowed to practice your culture. You're cool with that.

And if girls were 18 years old in

Malcolm Collins: a pluralistic society, would you be like, all right, yeah, if they chose it, yeah, they're 18. Look, I'm sorry, but there's a certain point where you have to say like, otherwise, what do you end up, you end up banning interracial marriages, basically.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that's, that's true. I'm just, I'm just pointing out that your argument is, is in alignment with the justification provided by many of the policemen and caseworkers who allowed these things to happen.

Malcolm Collins: Right. But I think that you and I know that that's not what they really meant.

Simone Collins: I think it's one of the things that they really meant. I do. And I also think that a lot of it is also Classist [00:12:00] and that they were like, yeah, these. slutty, uneducated girls are just going off and doing this and it's trashy and they're gross.

And

Malcolm Collins: you know, for more context on what's happening here, cause we've got more information here. So there was a guy who was arrested in Rotherham by officers of the South Yorkshire police when he attempted to rescue his daughter from a great den. And he was arrested twice in the same night. And clearly he's trying to rescue his, his daughter.

Can you imagine? Right, and now, so Simone, I know you're saying what you're saying, but like, it's clear that that's not what was happening. This is much closer to Apartheid not Apartheid, what am I looking at? Like Antebellum South. Under the what were those laws called? The The laws that were racist against black people in the south.

The Jim Crow laws.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay. Under the

Malcolm Collins: Jim Crow laws. Where, you know, it is not the same for a white man to commit a crime against a black woman as it is for a white woman. You know, a black man to do the same thing to a white woman. Like if a black man did this to a white [00:13:00] woman during that period, you know, they'd just be immediately lynched.

If you know, a poor white guy had done this to you know, Pakistani women. Well, and we know that's the case

Simone Collins: because we know of other cases in the UK, totally divorced from. mostly totally divorced from this issue where for example, academic research has been suppressed because the findings of the research.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. So the, the academic, the reason why it's so hard to access the genetic data banks in the UK is because somebody was doing research and they just decided to look at the rates of children who are born from a, Father having relations with their daughter because it's easy to tell from like genetic code and it turned out it happened within one population at 30, 000 times the rate of any other population.

And they were like, Oh, this is super racist. It's not racist. It's a fact. It's a problem. It's a problem. Like what about really bad? Why is that? So, you know, why all this came to [00:14:00] light was Elon Musk. Accused the prime minister, sir, Keir Stammer of being deeply complicit in this. And of course, no, he's like, no, no, no, I wasn't complicit, but like, why is he not allowing for this to be investigated?

Why is his party? The,

Simone Collins: the argument that has been made by people in the UK is if he were innocent in this, especially because he's newly elected, the typical obvious response of a newly elected politician, when there's some kind of scandal is. Absolutely. Put an inquiry on like I wasn't here. Oh, these darn previous politicians have screwed everything up.

Thank goodness. I've been elected to office. So it is, it is suspicious that he's not full steam ahead on this. It does imply he has something to hide.

Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah. And I can understand in an instance like this, and I think that people don't get it when, when a society reaches a point like this. Where there is no face that the electoral system really cares about the public.

You mind [00:15:00] 76 percent of people want this investigated, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: This is where you get figures like Luigi Mangione coming up. Yeah,

Simone Collins: I'm no true. Yeah, just, you're just going to have to start killing people

Malcolm Collins: when it doesn't look like there's any other realistic solution. When I

Simone Collins: hear about some of the things that were done to these.

In this these these underage girls

Malcolm Collins: it was my kid if it was my kid Like very seriously. And I think that this is the thing about you know, people people are like, oh malcolm You're you're so you know the same people in the uk are being so timid. I I would be a danger A danger to these politicians, I guess

Simone Collins: yeah, I mean you you get pushed to a point where You're going to have if If people had done any of these things listed to our children, both you and I would break the law to enact justice.

I don't care. Like, there's, and because you know me, like, I really, also, [00:16:00] I find the idea of committing acts of violence distasteful. Like, I just don't like it because it's messy. I don't like human bodies. I think it's gross. I would have absolutely no problem here.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Simone Collins: We're talking torture.

There are times when I think it's appropriate to torture other people. I'm very willing to state this. Publicly and openly that which they have done to their victims

Malcolm Collins: or the, or the, there's actually this,

Simone Collins: I don't know, you haven't, you've not read the girl with the dragon tattoo series. The way that she knocks justice, I think is wonderful.

Lisbeth Salander. The autistic my my autistic hero, by the way,

Malcolm Collins: it's the way that they covered this up. Yeah, the way that the police dismissed it is they just called all of the victims unreliable.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I love it. I think that's very classist. I think it's super classist. It's like, oh, this This, they're just, they're writing them off as, as poor girls

Malcolm Collins: of [00:17:00] why progressives ignore that class is like the main thing that matters where they're like, Oh, like ethnic differences matter.

Oh, like neuro differences matter. Oh, gender differences matter. And you're like, actually, it's mostly just class. I'm like, no, no, no, no. And the core answer we'll get to in that episode is that. What? The problem is is that within progressive culture, the loudest voices are intrinsically the highest class voices, and so it cannot be admitted in terms of who you are hearing from was in progressive culture that everything is downstream of class or the people who is systemic power within that culture would lose their power or be delegitimized.

And so they can't say, Oh, us PhD student at Harvard is actually very privileged. Because I am a queer, you know, trans woman, right? You know, I, I, I get to say it, it sort of like delegitimizes the entire power structure there because the power structure is so tied to the existing oligarchical structure.[00:18:00]

Of our society and the existing elitist pools within society there and so they are very comfortable dehumanizing anyone who is both low class and of one of the ethnic groups that they, you know, don't see as human, but I want to address here a claim that's been made repeatedly that. Oh, actually, everyone always knew about that.

Actually, the New York Times covered this. Actually, this wasn't covered up by the New York Times.

Simone Collins: Oh, yeah, this is something people have started to say. Yeah, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Well, there was a great investigation into this by Matt Goodwin, who did a series of tweet on it. Okay. And so first he goes over how he did the research. And the gist being is he goes into the articles using the specific wording that people criticized him for not using before. They're like, okay, you've got to use this wording because this is the way they were talking about it.

So he goes, let's look at the years, 2011 to 2025. Because before that, before 2011, [00:19:00] there was not a single mention in this, in the UK media, despite. There being evidence of this and people talking about this going back decades, specifically the BNP and

Simone Collins: the EDL.

Malcolm Collins: But in 2011 comes a big year where we're like, they lose any excuse for not talking about this anymore because in 2011, Andrew Norfolk of the Times started to write the first early pieces despite hard evidence that while he was writing these pieces, he was being abused and harassed for doing it.

So let's look at all UK newspapers during this more than a decade long period, 2011 to 2025, 4, 659 articles, okay? Okay. So, so this is, this is all the Grooving Gang, Grooving Gangs, everything like that. So under 5, 000, okay. So. Anti Muslim, 17, 000 articles. Okay. Post Office or Horizon, 20, 000 [00:20:00] articles. Extreme Right, 21, 000 articles.

Islamophobia, 23, 000 articles. Exposes Scandal, 25, 000 articles. Stephen Lawrence, 25, 000 articles. 29. 8 thousand articles. Anti racism, 34, 000 articles. Windrush, 35. 5 thousand articles. You want to hear something ridiculous? George Floyd, 38. 8 thousand articles. When they have an active one guy and they've got active and well known great gangs going on in their country.

Black Lives Matter, 59, 000 articles. Grinfeld, 71, 000. Net zero 141, 000 and racism 382, 000. Very obsessed with racism, very unconcerned with great gays. The numbers speak for themselves. Relative to other scandals and among a strong liberal bias in parts of the media class, the mass grape of young working class white girls and women just wasn't a priority.

But even there, [00:21:00] 440 articles built around grooming gang between 2011 2 20 25 is dwarfed by the. 2, 860 articles on Islamophobia, the 3, 200 articles. So keep in mind, this was compared to his 440 articles, Gang, 3, 000 articles on just um, 2, 600 on George Floyd, 5, 500 on Black Lives Matter.

And they did this with the New York Times as well, because some people were like, Oh, the New York Times covered this and the New York Times covered this like three times. And then other. I hadn't even heard of some like random death thing that they claimed was like unjust. It was like 3000 times or something or like 500 times.

So it's, it's just obvious. If you look at 2011, 2025, the guardian had 113 articles on this phenomenon compared to 3, 300 on Islamophobia. What about the BBC? You had 357 mentions. So this is between BBC news and BBC radio compared to , 7, [00:22:00] 500 mentions of George Floyd. 7.

4 thousand of Stephen Lawrence. It's just,

Simone Collins: yeah, so this wasn't really discussed. And I mean, we're lucky, I think, that Elon Musk has just decided around New Year's to make this a big deal to try to hold people accountable. I think it's a really interesting phenomenon that someone just incredibly wealthy and powerful can just kind of decide at some point like, single handedly, I'm not okay with this.

I've read the court documents. I'm going to make a big fuss about

Malcolm Collins: this.

Simone Collins: And like, actually things get discussed.

Malcolm Collins: Like, Elon Musk is the reason why anyone is paying attention to this now.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: He's the reason why anyone is taking this, this current, you know, huge bout of trans research we're seeing, showing that it's like just a net negative now.

Most people grow out of it. More than 9 people grow out of it. Like, the, the, this whole thing we know now is just. A LARP at this [00:23:00] point and the number of children who were harmed across both of these systems that Elon has brought attention to And I hope he continues to like it's like you got one sane guy who just happens to have a lot of power Why isn't mark zuckerberg doing stuff like this?

Why isn't bill gates doing stuff like this? they could if they wanted to like the only other person who seems to be showing intellectual integrity is jk rowling You know, let's see, let's see her jump on grooming gangs. I can see she might.

I went to check in post if she had. And of course she has, , in a posted has gotten over 4.5 million views, JK Rowling tweeted. The details are merging about what the

Great.

gangs, why call them grooming gangs. It's like calling those who stab people to death knife owners did to the girls. And rather than her ham is downright horrific.

The allegations of possible police corruption in some cases are almost beyond belief. And she is referencing an article here that says, according to the [00:24:00] victim who believed she was quote unquote in a relationship with basher at Hossain, when she was 15, the brothers had influence over some of the officers. Of south Yorkshire police. She told Sheffield Corona court bass said he used to pay this person in CID and this person would say, what's going to happen with me.

And he'd also tell him. When he was going to get busted in quote. These claims are now being investigated, but in at least one case in the early two thousands. A victim's abuser seemed to be aware she was at a state police station waiting to make a complaint against him. Like, we need to seriously break through this racist cabal that controls our universities and society right now.

It's, it's, it's, it's racist, it's sexist, and it victimizes anyone that think can't protect themselves.

Simone Collins: What do you think is going to be done in the end? I mean, we

Malcolm Collins: saw, we saw they tried to do an investigation and they [00:25:00] shut it down. They shut it down because the, the ways that voting is done in the UK supports like normiedom and even the conservatives we know in the UK are like, they, they, they do not like, it's not that no good conservatives exist in the UK.

They do exist.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: They're just extremely small in number and they don't have political power.

Simone Collins: Well, one argument that's being made as well is that many MPs. Simply have such large constituencies of Pakistani communities that they can't really afford

to look critical in this case.

So, I mean, you're just like, sorry, guys, but I can't participate in this and get reelected.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I think you need people calling for major reform in the way the UK works, major deportations, major, like with a lot of this stuff. What we need to understand is that it does not make sense to treat first immigration [00:26:00] immigrants, the way you treat existing citizens within a country, especially if that country isn't a country of immigrants, like the United States like, okay, you're a first generation immigrant first offense, you're deported.

That makes sense. No, the problem is

Simone Collins: these people aren't even getting slaps on the wrist. The what? First defense. Well, that rule were in place, you know, I mean, we, we need to be a lot more strict about things, but I don't know. I mean, it seems that, but here's

Malcolm Collins: the thing, like we caught them with their hand in the cookie jar.

We caught them with, everyone knew thousands of children had been basically sold into prostitution. Well, I, I, I,

Simone Collins: to that point, by the way, I think there's another theme here that's important to discuss, which is. People are like, well, I don't know how I could ever be. Nazi, like, if I were in Nazi Germany, I would know, like, I was the baddie and I would get out of there and I would find Hitler and stop him, but what, okay, what's happening now?

I mean, okay, people aren't [00:27:00] being incinerated in mass, but you have large numbers of people. underage children being brutalized and having their lives ruined and being tortured and

Malcolm Collins: Well, I think in the us when people are like, oh no I would like in the u. s progressives aren't like this and I was like look at the u.

s people on campuses that glorify the October 7th attacks in Israel where they, they actively act as if these people are heroes, mainstream brands post things as if everyone knows that they're doing this stuff. And they just don't care.

They just do not care if it is somebody of one of the approved ethnicities doing it to someone of the disapproved of the lower ethnicities. And even people, and this is the thing, even people of the approved ethnicities that are like, Oh my God, like, This needs to stop like they're not like they don't love what you guys are doing.

And I think that this is the thing is people are [00:28:00] like, Oh, Pakistanis won't like that. Pakistanis get arrested and removed from the, no, they would love that because then the people in the UK have no reason to think when they meet a random Pakistani, oh, they're probably involved in grape gangs. Because they're like, Oh, this gets punished.

And this isn't something that's allowed to happen. But no, like, everybody wants this except for the elite, you know, urban monoculture, really the ones who are in office and, and, and controlling these various countries and the oligarchs who don't want people paying attention to this because it doesn't affect them.

It doesn't affect their daughters. It doesn't affect their communities.

Simone Collins: It could,

Malcolm Collins: well, it could if we get some more Luigi Mangione's up in here. I'm just saying that the longer, like the longer that people support and cover up for [00:29:00] institutionally unfair systems, the longer, I mean, why, why do we like know and like not care that no investigation has happened into the people who we know are at Epstein's Island? Why do we know and not care? care that like the P Diddy thing to come out and we know no one's getting arrested for that other than P Diddy.

None of the other celebrities that were at these parties, like it's not even like a thing in the back of my mind that they might be that we just know that, oh, okay, either you're wealthy or if you're of certain ethnic groups, when you just know,

Simone Collins: yeah,

I don't know what to say. I mean, terrible things like this have been happening as long as.

Humans have been around. I mean, even bonobos do terrible things like this to each other at this, this is, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: but typically you don't allow outsiders to come and do it to people of your group.

Simone Collins: Yeah, normally, yeah, there, there are mechanisms for fighting back, and I guess the fact that We have a society here where the mechanisms for defending your own from this are [00:30:00] being systematically broken is the sign of a culture that has a very limited shelf life.

You're not long for this world. If you cannot defend your daughters from this, like your culture, this is an already dead culture. Maybe that's the biggest sign here of like, well, I mean, that's what

Malcolm Collins: I've always said. The UK already dead. And some of our fans are like, no, like we can fight back. Then. Then do it like fix it because I don't see a realistic solution to save anything in the UK right now.

And both of us have lived significant periods of our lives in the UK. I lived there for four years. I love the UK.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Wait, this is like our second episode recently. We were like, Oh crap. No,

not the UK. What was the

Malcolm Collins: first one? What is so effed? Yeah. I got my undergrad at St. Andrews and my undergraduate degree at Cambridge.

Like clearly we're not like anti UK. We got married in the UK. But I don't see how they pull themselves out of it without a massive revolution in the country.

Simone Collins: Yeah, it's called [00:31:00] for but I mean, this again, also is not just an issue in the UK on this very issue. I on her CLE was talking about this, this problem and how she covered it in her book, Bray, which came out in 2021.

Well, before this was ever an issue. And she, she, when she was in Europe before she came to the United States, she lived in the Netherlands, you know, she wasn't even in the UK. And this, this was something she was seeing throughout Europe as being a major problem. And there, there were, and we we've heard rumblings of this.

Remember like the mass rape issue or, or, or incident in Germany, for example. And at that point, Angela Merkel was like, Yeah, multiculturalism has failed, but nothing is happening. And, and that's, I guess also what worries me is, That people might pat themselves on the back and be like, Ah, we've identified the problem.

You know, it's Rotherham. And now we're like, it's, I'm glad we [00:32:00] figured that out. We better keep an eye out, you know, keep your girls inside if you live over there. But that's not, no, it's, it's not just these. These parts of

Malcolm Collins: the problem is, is being realistic that, that certain immigrant groups need to be treated with a more discerning eye than other immigrant groups and we're just not doing that.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I think also keeping a really close eye on your kids and who they hang out with. I know. Other, other pernicious families that we really admire. Or absolutely all for having their kids, having friends. But they also make their houses homes where all the kids want to hang out. They entertain, they have really cool spaces.

And when your kid has friends, you watch those friends like a hawk. And you know exactly what your kids are up to. And I think that that's maybe something people need to be more mindful. So we've talked in other episodes about how important it is that parents are and siblings. are deeply involved in their [00:33:00] children's dating, that they help to source partners, that they help to vet partner partners, that they share opinions, that they get involved.

But I think that this is also an indication that parents need to be way more hands on when it comes to, I wouldn't even say that's it. I

Malcolm Collins: think it's important to understand that when we talk about this concept of society splitting into various groups in one group being basically the, the God, what did they call them?

Fallout Raiders. Okay. Basically the Raiders which is a group that is survived fertility collapse because they were too stupid to use contraception or they just did force. You know, insemination basically women who were not consenting. These groups already exist and they already behave animal like, and they're already incredibly dangerous to be alongside and they exist in most major populated centers today.

And your kids need to know about them. If you're in those areas, [00:34:00] it is so dangerous to raise kids in large cities or in the outskirts of a large city.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And I think maybe parents don't realize how blase their own children can be. I actually remember when I, when I was 13 years old and my parents.

Let me stay for a month in Mexico in a hostel, a mixed gender hostel in a good town. Like it was a good area. It was, it was like, you know, pretty safe, but also I was the only minor there. And, and, you know, it was a pretty ballsy move on their part. And I had this argument with a college student studying biology, who was also working at this ecological center that I was volunteering at for that month.

So. Got really mad at me about safety. Cause I was like, I want to go out and do this. And like, I want to go take the bus to the grocery store or something like that. And she's like, you can't go out by yourself. Like you could get great, you could get, you know, like it's dangerous out there. And I'm like, no, it's not the vast majority of people are good.

Like the world is [00:35:00] safe. And she's like, no, you could get really, really hurt. And I just was of the very vehement opinion. That I would say wherever I could go and here I am like I'm a 13 year old girl in Mexico and I'm just like I'm gonna go out and like and I mean thank goodness nothing bad ever happened to me when I was a kid but yeah I

Malcolm Collins: hitchhiked through South America when I was like I want to say 14 or young.

Simone Collins: Yeah, we, you know, we blithely thought that the world was a safe place and that people were good. And, and here's the thing is the vast majority of the time, you know, this is why we're alive. You know, if it were like 90 percent of the time, if a 13 year old girl stayed in a hostel by herself in Mexico and no, no, no, but here's what you're

Malcolm Collins: missing.

And this is actually really important.

Simone Collins: Okay. It

Malcolm Collins: is. Is 90 percent of the time in some of these countries

Simone Collins: passing happens.

Malcolm Collins: So there is a famous example of the

Simone Collins: girl who, yeah,

Malcolm Collins: the girl who's like, I'm going to hitchhike through the world and [00:36:00] I'm going to show all the people are like the same. And so I'm going to go from Europe.

So she goes from like Northern Europe. Hits the border of a Muslim country, literally within 10 miles of the border, her body was later found graped to death and, and, and mutilated. She, she didn't even get 10 miles from the border attempting this. Like people are different. Cultures are different.

Simone Collins: It's true. It's true. And I guess the larger point that I'm making though, I know I had that same sort of blind opinion. Is that we need to, we need to unfortunately dispel people of this impression that like everyone's mostly nice and like all cultures are nice and you know, like it's and I don't, I don't know how to, I don't know how to reconcile this cause I, I don't, I mean, you and I believe vehemently in the importance of.

You know, different cultures, culture, I believe

Malcolm Collins: that these cultures will destroy [00:37:00] themselves. I don't believe all cultures are equal. I don't believe that a culture where people will murder someone because they think that they've stolen somebody else's penis, see our penis stealing episode, that that's a good cultural practice.

I don't believe that a culture where people sterilize their children because they think that they're a different gender than the gender they were born. Is a good culture. There's all sorts of horrifying things that are done around the world. And they, you know, it's important that you call out when somebody is doing something evil.

Simone Collins: Yeah, I guess the importance is to defend the right for cultural experiments to exist, but to also have the right to denounce them and defend your own culture. Right. So you can have both at once. You can, you can respect people's choice to have their own experiments while equally denouncing those experiments.

And vehemently fighting against them. Yes. How is [00:38:00] this best done? I mean, Yeah, I guess on a national level, it is justified. You can shut cultures out that you don't like, that you think are toxic because, You know, if you, Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Toxic cultures won't come to your country if you don't engage in socialist practices.

Yeah, yeah, that's the best way to keep these types of people away. It's just don't give money to people who are unproductive

Simone Collins: Yeah, no socialism. No socialism. You cannot have

Malcolm Collins: as my grandfather said you cannot have generous social services in porous borders And and I believe that very strongly for the u.

s. Do not have Generous social services. That's how you keep out undesirable immigrants. You make it to the it's just To be here if you're not productive.

Simone Collins: Yeah, any other thoughts on this?

Malcolm Collins: Nope. Love you to death Simone. And yeah, I [00:39:00] I also think that people who haven't been around american culture may not realize like how close many americans are to snapping

Simone Collins: Well and uh I would hope, I would hope many people in the UK, I hope that this drive people and families in UK to bring and whether this is through legitimate political means or illegitimate revolts, because I think maybe it's getting to the point where that

Malcolm Collins: Revolts aren't illegitimate when the government is immoral.

Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah, but like something Something has to change before more people get

Malcolm Collins: government built upon racism and doing some ethnic wearing a human dignity than others deserves to be revolted. I think the UK government is already at the they deserve to be overthrown. I think. Honestly, if I was a monarch in Europe right now, I, I'd be like, ah, this is my chance to reestablish a hereditary monarchy with power in our country.

Because I think for example, the citizens of the UK right now would be [00:40:00] very for that.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh. So if Will and Kate were like, Nah, screw this, we're taking it back. Yeah, just yeah, we decided

Malcolm Collins: to stop the parliament. You guys aren't doing a very good job of this whole thing. Yeah, listen, you

Simone Collins: know, this, it was a good run.

I mean, technically, technically, I think the monarchy can do that. The

Malcolm Collins: monarchy can.

Simone Collins: Yeah, so.

Malcolm Collins: The question is just does the public and the military support them at this point? I think just have the right conversations with the right military leaders and be like, look, this system is not working anymore.

Simone Collins: Well, Charles and Camilla won't be able to do it, but I think Will and Kate could if suddenly they got super based. I could see them being secretly.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, no, Will and Kate. I could, I could see, yeah, so they were at St. Andrews, not far apart from me. Yeah, they can figure it out. Actually, so like all of the older classmen when I was there were there when they were there.

And I could have, I could have married Will. I was this [00:41:00] close. Oh, passed over, passed over. I'm not gay, but come on. I, I want to be king.

Simone Collins: Yeah, what, what a, what a miss there. What a miss, but.

Malcolm Collins: All right. I love you to the decimum. I love you too, gorgeous.

Does my hair look bad? I need to cut it. Does it look bad? Is my question. That was

Simone Collins: It

looks Yeah. I never want to say, you never tell a spouse that they look bad. You tell them What does Mark Zuckerberg say? Or like Priscilla Chan say to him something like not not your best work. It just sounds very high achieving like high educated like it sounds like what Harvard grads would say. I really love the new Zuckerberg era, whatever's going on here.

It's good. He seems really [00:42:00] secure and like he cares a lot less about what other people think, you know?

And there's just something about people when they get to that stage. I feel really

Malcolm Collins: good. One day, one of these, these people is going to find our show and be like, Oh, I love you guys. Here's a billion dollars to go do all your crazy ideas that you don't have to fund it yourself anymore. Or maybe our game will take off, which I am very, very excited about.

I was working on it a lot today. See, that would

Simone Collins: make me happy. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: you don't know. We are under the foundation. So under the nonprofit been developing a LLM game. Well, it's a, it's a game game, like a room world or an isometric type, like fallout type post apocalyptic game, but done where every character is done with an LLM.

And you play through it in a very, I almost call it like it takes a lot from the Talos principle that it's really focused on like deeper philosophical questions while also trying to deliver a very narrative. And incredibly deep [00:43:00] lore environment, and the faction I was working on today, you'd find them very fun are the Mormons.

I was working on a few factions, the Mormons, the Amish. So what happened to the Mormons is that the central Mormon church. Ended up capitulating more and more and more over time, attempting to be more normal, more like the Urban Botanical

Simone Collins: Garden. Oh no,

Malcolm Collins: no! But, a group of young Mormons began to popularize the use of an app that was trained on all of the older church fathers, all of the prophets, and the various biblical texts.

Simone Collins: Okay, that's interesting.

Malcolm Collins: The app would they would consult it before doing things at first, like, this is just the way it started. You would consult it before, okay, do I do X, do I do Y and as time went further, they began to see it as the equivalent of other holy scriptures, and they had a schism with the mainstream church.

But it was very clear to people a few things. One is that the people [00:44:00] who were following the app based system were much more devout followed things much better because they had put up iterations of the app across smart devices in their house. So it basically watched them 24 7 to make sure that they were upholding everything and give them daily scores that were private to them.

But it also,

Simone Collins: it's as if God gave you immediate feedback, which Honestly would be fantastic.

Malcolm Collins: Well, yes, but it has more than that because it has a network of people who are in it and also was able to do things like do marriage matching for them. Do job placement for them within anyone in the network. And as it became clearer that this group was doing way better than the rest of the Mormons and they began to gain respect from the rest of the Mormons, they reintegrated the two and they ended up building out a giant like centralized GPU hub.

under the Temple Square with eventually evolving like a priest like cast of people to be like, oh, Mormons wouldn't evolve that. Look, Mormons had [00:45:00] polygyny just, you know, how long ago. Like, Mormons thought that, like, Black people were, like, punished before. Like, Mormons adapt and evolve their beliefs faster than most other religions.

It's most not an impossible thing and it would be a very reasonable solution to fertility collapse without going with one of the more like extremist approaches. And so they have built quite a utopia type area within their regions with the Obviously, the caveat is that if you don't use the app the app directs everyone who is using it to ignore you and pretend you don't exist.

So it's very hard to live or do business in Mormon territory unless you're, you're part of this central network.

Simone Collins: Hmm. Interesting.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Come on, it's fun. I like that world.

Simone Collins: It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Yeah.

All right. No, it's like I could see that actually happening, which is what makes it really fun.

That's what I

Malcolm Collins: tried to do with everything in it. Like I tried to make it everything is [00:46:00] something you could see actually happening.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

This was a depressing discussion today, but What isn't depressing is NatalCon in Austin this March.

You should come and hang out with us there and the many other cool pronatalists who will be present. Enter Collins at checkout for 10 percent off registration, which you should be saving money for your family. Do it! And we hope to see you there.

Speaker 5: It's called Onigiri. Can you say Onigiri? Okay, go ahead and take one. Take one. Good. Take a bite.

What do you think? Do you like it? You think you like Onigiri? Can you say Oishii desu? Oishii? Oishii desu ka? Oh, you take to it like a natural. Say, oishii desu [00:47:00] ka? Toasty, can you say, itadakimasu? Itadakimasu! Okay, take your rice, take your triangle. Oh! It's not hot. Go ahead, try. No, no, no, you touch this one, you get this one, okay?

Take this one. Take the one that you, here. This one, my buddy. No, no, no, you take a bite. It's a rice triangle.

Okay, I'm going to save this one for you. We're going to save it for Toasty. You want to take another bite? Itadakimasu! Itadakimasu! Itadakimasu! Good job! Can you say? Only gi. Only gi. Only gi, yeah. Oh no, only gi. Giddy. Giddy. Only giddy. Candy. Oh, so you only has salt on it? We have salt, yeah.

You wanna try it? Pick it up and take a bite. Oh, you're, yeah, that's, that's how you eat. One noodle at a time, one grain at a [00:48:00] time. So I get it all food up. It's very toasty friendly. I'm titan. You hold it up and you just take a big bite like it's a big lo. I did it. They're so yummy. Good job.