not openly said it, but if it works out the way you're hoping, it's another angle on what you're talking about that I think plays very well with what you're pushing forward. And that is this idea that if you're able to reinvigorate the trades through education, skill education, all those things we've been talking about, you may end up lowering the cost for college. So in other words, by helping the people that maybe would rather not go to college and be happier if they get to work in a way that they're they're pleased with, you might be making college. In other words, you might be satisfying that desire that those Democratic politicians by simply eliminating the cost or trying to they're trying to do the same thing. One's just doing it artificially and mandating it. The other is creating the supply and demand aspect. Because I just want to point out, for those who don't know, you can go to Europe, not to say that Europe is any better than here. Education at the highest levels is so much less expensive. You can go to some of the greatest universities in Europe for what you pay for the state school near you. And that's wrong. But there are lots of societal reasons why it's gone the way it's gone. It would be nice to see college costs come down as part of our efforts to help those who maybe would rather do something besides go to college anyway. That would be a wonderful little elegant sidebar to an idea that you're pushing.

And thank you for saying it, because I am no enemy of college. I am no enemy of a four-year degree. My liberal arts education served me very well. Ditto.

But

Dan, it was 1984. It was two years at a community college and two and a half years at a university, and the total bill was $12,400. A

man can live with that, yeah.

Today, same exact course load, same exact schools, 94 grand. Nothing in the history of Western civilization, not energy, not healthcare, not real estate, not food, nothing has ever become so exponentially more expensive over such a period of time as a four-year degree. So look, the value of a thing and the cost of a thing, you can't talk about one without that. They're related, yes. Of course. So I completely agree with you. How are we going to get the cost of college down? Unfortunately, you know, it's, well, look, they're making it easier than they've ever made it.

Got a lot of online courses, all that kind of stuff.

Well, and also, I mean, I'm not sure it's current events anymore, but, you know, that whole plagiarism thing, that's a bad look. Those protests, Claudine Gay, UPenn, Liz McGill, that's a bad look. You know, a lot of parents looked at that and kind of cringed, you know, $52 billion in endowments and 1.7% tax on it and all the screaming against raising the tax on the endowment. That's a bad look. Higher ed is, talk about bad PR. They've made my job. Why do I have 10 times the applicants that I did a year ago? I think in part because a lot of parents are looking around and a lot of kids too and saying, yep, that's just too expensive. Oh, and by the way, I don't like what they're saying over there. I'm just not really comfortable with what's happening in our greatest institutions. So for a lot of reasons, I think they've made some unforced errors, and I think they're suffering from some self-inflicted wounds. We haven't changed. I'm not saying anything different today than I did 16 years ago. We have to make a more persuasive case for these opportunities. And, you know, I would have been happy to work with President Obama. And I would work with President Trump. And I don't know to what degree or how closely or how badly I'll get burned. I really don't. But I've worked with unions, and God knows I've taken it in the neck for some past comments on that as well. But I just don't know how else to have the conversation. I can't tiptoe around every third rail because I'm afraid of being boycotted, as I was with Walmart. Oh, my God. It happens. It happens. Well,

we're complicated people. You know, I mean, that's the thing that I think a lot of this forgets. And this dovetails into everything we've talked about, right? The individual, right? The fact that we're, you know, and I'll tell this story that I will let you go. And I apologize for keeping you this long. But I told you the story when I was on the radio and the Martian in the Day part thing. And I just had such problems with consultants and program directors who were trying to figure out how to market me. And they would say, the audience needs to know where you stand on every issue within five minutes of tuning in. That's an absolute quote, word for word. Right. And I said, that's not a human being. That's a cartoon character. And they said, yes, but that's what we need. Right. We we need. And and the point is, is that we've we've turned into this place where if you're wrong on one thing in your giant repertoire of 100 things that you're talking about, people just throw you away now. And this applies to I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about me. You're wrong on one thing and you're out. Well, that's the binary, the way we've gone to a totally binary political society now where you're with us or against us. There is no nuance. There is no gray. There is no compromise. And we don't want you trying to talk to the other side. We want you planting your flag on our side and saying which side you're on. And by the way, if the story of what we're saying changes while you're here, we expect you to change too. I mean, that's that, that level of groupthink when you're a Martian in the day part, doesn't even make any sense.

Imagine the same thought process applied to, I don't know, pick a category. How about food? How about I no longer eat in restaurants that have anything on the menu that I don't like. I will only dine in a restaurant that

has- I thought you were being serious for a second.

You confused the hell out of me. I'm like, really? No, I was just saying- Yeah, I get it. Yeah. But imagine, I mean, like that, it's the same thought process. It's like, I don't, I can't listen to this podcaster unless I agree with 100% of what she says. I can't watch this show. I can't read this book. I can't eat this food. I can't clear my plate unless I love everything on it. I can't go to this restaurant. I can't go to this school, right? I mean, we have put ourselves, on the one hand, we've lowered our standards so far that I scarcely know how to think about it. On the other hand, we're so demanding of the places we go. We're so enamored of Glassdoor and Yelp. I mean, who listening hasn't checked Rotten Tomatoes before watching a movie on a plane or Yelp before going to a restaurant? We're so eager. I mean, this is probably a good place to land the plane, though I'll talk to you all day. But I mean, it really brings it back to the audience, right? It brings it back to the audience and it brings it back to the influencer and it brings it back to the entrepreneur. We're in a world now where we get to be the customer. We get to sit there. We get to be the consumer. And then we get to go home and be the critic. And then we get to be the observer and sit back and watch the response to our criticism. Hmm. Who agrees with me? Who disagrees with me? And what's wrong with them? I think I'll mix it up with this guy. And then we'll gin up the outrage. And then before

you know. Yeah, was the criticism legit or were you just trying to get more people to pay attention? That's right. Look,

there's not much new to say other than in the immortal words of Walt Disney, you must be this tall to get on the ride. And you are. You are, Dan Carlin. You're on the ride. And you've got an audience. And you've got an enormous brain. And you've got a big curious mind. And you have an obligation that you feel, whether it's real or justified, is beside the point. I was so touched the other day when we spoke on the phone about whether or not to do this. I so relate to the basic quandary of, you know, you don't want to complain about the fact that you parachuted into a minefield, but nor do you wish to blow yourself up during your exit. You care so much about the work that you do, and you care about the people who listen to you, and that duty of care is wonderful. And the fact that you give a damn and the fact that you take the criticisms personally, that's a consummation devoutly to be wished. That's the essence of responsibility and character if you're going to wander into this miasma. you know? I just, I was so glad to hear, I was so glad to commiserate with you around this, because this will sound horribly elitist, but it's a short list of people who actually really know what I'm

talking about. I was just going to say that it's a weird thing, but not a lot of people, not a lot of people are in this position. And when you're in it, it's it's bewildering. And so to have somebody where you could just go, what the hell? And have them. I mean, you clarified a few things from you helped me out in a way. But I mean, it is for the how did we this happens every time we talk when I've been on your show a few times. It just goes on forever. But I mean, this is one of those things where I don't know how to behave in the current situation we're in. And I realize that you're not in my lane, which is a very minefield of a lane. But but we're all having the same problem. Like, what do we say? How do we say it? And most importantly, I don't mind getting in trouble for saying things. I want to be effective. Right. I want to, I want to help. And I, and like people are saying, we need a show from you. I'm not against doing a show, but I want to, I want it to be more than just bitching and moaning.

You want it to be a good one. You don't want it to be the guy in the church basement, jumping rope with his own arms, just because he was, listen,

I would watch that though. I would watch too, but that

sizzle reel show has a, has a home somewhere. Look, man, I'll leave you with this. Again, I'm repeating myself, but I don't- Me too. Two things regarding Travis McGee. Be wary of all earnestness. It still holds up. And the only sensible way to get through this crazy life is with the attitude of a vaudevillian clown. Embrace the work ethic. Show up every day. Do your job. And when you get the pie in the face, you know, eat a piece. Smile. You must be this tall to get on the ride, dude. And you are. And I am so glad. I'm so grateful that nine and a half years ago, when I listened to you go on by yourself at three and a half hours at double speed, making me smarter about the first world war, that we get to sit here today, you know, nearly a decade later and, you know, talk about all the trouble in the world and still find a way to laugh a little.