The Double Frame and World-Building

"The protection of interiority is the central motivation of Metamodernism." So says Greg Dember, a Seattle-based musician, songwriter and independent researcher in Metamodernism. As the co-founder of the What Is Metamodern? website with Linda Ceriello, PhD, Greg’s writing and podcast appearances speaking on metamodernism have helped popularize the terminology outside of academic discourse through accessible writing. He is the author of Say Hello To Metamodernism!: Understanding Today’s Culture of Ironesty, Felt Experience, and Empathic Reflexivity (2024 Exact Rush). He is also a co-editor of the forthcoming multi-author volume, My Impossible Soul: The Metamodern Music of Sufjan Stevens (Bloomsbury/Lexington). He holds a BA (1987) from Yale University.

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Greg and Linda's Metamodern site - https://www.whatismetamodern.com

Greg's article on the 11 methods of Metamodernism - https://medium.com/what-is-metamodern/after-postmodernism-eleven-metamodern-methods-in-the-arts-767f7b646cae

Greg's book on Metamodernism - https://www.amazon.com/Say-Hello-Metamodernism-Understanding-Reflexivity/dp/B0DHGFKZ8W/

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In this conversation, I sit down with Greg to explore metamodernism as the cultural backdrop that's emerged since roughly 2000, taking over from postmodernism's ironic detachment. We discuss how metamodernism oscillates between modern earnestness and postmodern irony to defend the significance of interiority and felt experience. Greg introduces his framework of 11 metamodern methods—including empathic reflexivity and the double frame—and we examine how artists like the Daniels (Everything Everywhere All At Once), Wes Anderson, Bo Burnham, and even The Beatles navigate this territory. The conversation ranges from David Letterman's evolution to Don Quixote as a proto-metamodern text, exploring how this sensibility has spread from indie niches into mainstream culture, and what it means for how we make and experience art today.

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⏳Timestamps

0:00 Episode Intro2:26 Greg's current work: Sufjan Stevens book3:26 What is metamodernism? Cultural backdrop since 20104:50 From modernism to postmodernism to metamodernism7:36 David Letterman: from postmodern irony to Metamodern maturity10:32 The oscillation between modern and postmodern attributes12:26 Jimmy Fallon and the trend toward sincere enthusiasm15:56 Felt experience vs. detached observation19:26 Bo Burnham's Metamodern masterpiece "Inside"24:31 Rick Glassman and the Dance of Irony25:26 The new sincerity and its relationship to metamodernism28:26 Defending interiority as Metamodernism's central motivation31:38 From indie niches to mainstream: Billie Eilish and Taylor Swift33:29 Everything Everywhere All At Once: metamodernism as hell38:26 Wes Anderson and the metamodern sensibility39:28 The 11 metamodern methods framework40:31 Method #1: Empathic reflexivity40:56 Method #2: Oscillation between modern/postmodern dualities41:24 Method #3: The double frame (Raoul Eshelman)44:26 Quirky as a metamodern aesthetic46:26 Irony vs. cynicism: an important distinction49:26 Don Quixote as proto-metamodern?53:26 History rhymes: Shakespeare, Nietzsche, and cultural crossroads57:26 Exploring quirky and other metamodern methods59:39 Play, playfulness, and Wes Anderson1:01:01 Method #4: Meta-cute1:01:46 Moonrise Kingdom and Fantastic Mr. Fox as meta-cute1:03:56 Protecting interiority: the motivation behind metamodern art1:04:56 Metamodernism as reclaiming something eternally human1:06:26 Sufjan Stevens and the Illinois album1:07:16 Proto-metamodern vs. actually metamodern: the key distinction1:08:26 The Metamodern "Rocky Racoon"1:12:29 The Proto Metamodern Morrissey and The Smiths1:14:43 Guest recommendation: Linda Ceriello1:14:58 Where to find Greg's work