Introduction

We trace the evolution of the human construct “Hell” (Sheol; Hades; Gehenna; Dante’s Inferno), then talk about how hell may not be a place of eternal conscious torture by fire (the modern Evangelical version), but a transitional process intended to purify (Purgatory and Universalism).

One of the most disturbing elements of the “Good News” preached by many Evangelicals has to do with an eternal conscious torment in a fiery hell.  This element is often the reason why so many people give up that form of faith, and the reason that so many people seek psychological and pastoral help for the trauma they are experiencing and from which they are trying to recover.  Nonetheless, it’s a point that so many Evangelicals double-down upon and get so very animated about.  Think about the reaction that Rob Bell evoked when he published his book Love Wins!   Netflix still carries a great movie — Come Sunday — which centers around the deeply polarizing response that an up-and-coming Evangelical preacher experiences … from family, from members of his church, and from his denominational leaders … when he begins to question everything about eternal conscious torment in a fiery hell.

In this episode, we talk to an Exvangelical pastor (Derek Kubilus) about his book (Holy Hell: a case against eternal damnation) in which he describes discovering a deep hell-shaped well of trauma in his congregants when they asked him to teach a class on heaven and hell, and also discovering a whole new understanding of hell when he actually studied what the Bible had to say (or not say) about hell:

• some Christians seem to need there to be a hell …. they can’t tolerate the idea that there might not be a place of eternal conscious torment for people outside their tribe…. it’s a motivating ingredient in their “Good News” message
• Derek grew up Methodist …. spent time as an Evangelical …. then came back to Methodism …. obtained his Master of Divinity degree and is now vicar at a local United Methodist church in Ohio
• after doing research for the class on hell referred to above, he emerged as a committed universalist
• for thousands of years, the ancient Hebrews had only a vague understanding of the afterlife: they talked about “Sheol,” which was neither heaven nor hell, but a dark dusty place much like the Babylonian picture of the afterlife.  It was absolutely NOT a place of eternal conscious torment and punishment.
• despite that fact, most translations of the Old Testament translate “Sheol” as “hell” if the context seems to be negative, but as “grave” or “pit” if the context is neutral ….. or even pleasant! Yes you read that right: there are places in the Old Testament where Sheol is actually a pleasant place of peace and rest. We get into detail about that in the episode.
• Hell is NOT just the absence of God, as many Christians like to say when they’re trying to soften the offensiveness of Hell, because there are Biblical passages that say God can even be found in Sheol
• there is nothing in the Old Testament that suggests Sheol or hell is a place of eternal conscious torment
• Lot and Abraham holding each other’s testicles (I kid you not!?) to make a vow is an anachronistic element of what Jews of their time understood about living on into the afterlife ….. you’ll have to listen to the episode to get the explanation!?
• Greek thinking then replaced the world’s Babylonian understanding of the afterlife. Jewish scholars/writers started using “Hades” as a metaphor of Sheol.  Hades was also NOT a fiery pit of eternal torture. In fact, it had some very pleasant places: the Elysian fields and the Asphodel meadow. The worst part of Hades was Tartarus, where certain gods and demi-gods were punished by having to carry out endless meaningless tasks: like rolling a boulder to the very pinnacle of a mountain only for it to roll back down the other side (Sysiphus), or carry water in leaky buckets (Danaides), or have their liver eaten out by an eagle, only for it to grow back overnight and then be eaten again, every day (Prometheus).  But the average Greek person did not think anything like these punishments awaited them: again, their HADES was NOT a place of eternal conscious torment in a lake of fire.
• at this time, Jewish scholars/writers started also using Gehenna  — the name of a garbage dump in a small valley outside Jerusalem (and now a Recreation Park!) — as a metaphor of the afterlife.  Again, this was NOT a place of eternal conscious torment!!!!
• Derek provided a whole new perspective on the story of the sheep and the goats.  In this story, Evangelicals like to point to the words “eternal” and “punishment”, but Derek explains how those words can have an entirely different meaning, closer to the idea of a process of pruning or purging (Purgatory).
• nonetheless, modern day Christians turn the concept of hell into a weapon, and “wield that weapon like a kid who found his dad’s gun.  And we’re just waving it all over the neighborhood, trying to get people to do what we want them to do, because it is a very, very powerful weapon.”
• Derek questioned if they REALLY believe hell is as bad as they say. Because if they did, their preaching efforts should take on a whole new level of urgency.  In his book, he wrote: “All the violent means of conversion from the Middle Ages and the Spanish Inquisition would start to make much more sense. The foul tactics of Westboro Baptist Church would seem reasonable and appropriate.”
• this is the motive behind Derek writing this book: the Christian Church has been causing indescribable pain to people, and too many of the rest of us have too long allowed that to continue unchallenged.  As Derek said, “I’m not trying to win a debate [with theologians]; I want people to be able to live without being afraid of their God.”
• Derek now has a more redemptive view of hell: it isn’t an eternal fire of conscious torment, nor is it “a happy place where we all hold hands and sing Kumbaya,” but it is a place of purgation where impurities are burned away before enjoying an eternal life
• Dante is most remembered for his “Inferno” picture of hell, but Derek prefers to point to Dante’s other depiction of the afterlife: Purgatory, with a beautiful story and imagery.

Luke finished by asking for an opinion on his own uncertainties about any kind of afterlife (because who can really know?), in contrast to the certainty that there is a hell/heaven to be experienced on this side of the grave. That we should be working against the many forms of “hell” that we create here and now on earth, and work towards bringing heaven down to earth (as Christ said: “thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”).  Derek agreed with the “here and now” part of Luke’s idea, but still feels there’s also something metaphysical about it … that there is something as well “on the other side.”

As always, tell us your thoughts on this topic …

Find more information about Derek Kubilus at his own web-page, or at Eerdman’s page for his book.

If you enjoyed this episode, you may also like our previous episode about Hell (Episode #88), or our episodes on religious trauma related to the threat of hell (Episode #46 and #47), or our 7-part miniseries looking at the soul and the afterlife (Episodes #5 to #11) . Also check out Luke’s own book on the soul and the afterlife.

Episode image used by permission.

To help grow this podcast, please like, share and post a rating/review at your favorite podcast catcher.

Subscribe here to get updates each time a new episode is posted, and find us on Twitter or Facebook.

Back to Recovering Evangelicals home-page and the podcast archive