Cultural Significance of Gestures and the 4B Movement in South Korea

In this episode, join Malcolm and Simone as they embark on an extensive analysis of the 4B Movement, a feminist reaction gaining traction both in South Korea and the United States. The discussion covers the movement’s origins, its development, and its philosophical premises. Delve into the cultural differences between South Korean and American interpretations of 4B, the controversial stance of the movement on issues like marriage, traditional gender roles, and its anti-pornography and anti-trans perspectives. Listener discretion is advised as some shocking instances from the WOMAD forum are discussed. Learn how this movement intersects with both feminist and conservative ideologies, and its broader societal implications.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. I am excited to be here with you today. Today, we are going to do a deep dive both on the formation of the four B movement. It's moved to the United States. Yeah. But also being base camp, I wanted to take a unique perspective on this movement. And I think it reveals something that a lot of people are not picking up.

Speaker: You have to have four B's blood and bullets. That's what it takes

Malcolm Collins: So for those who are not clear what the four B movement is, is a movement away from having sex with men, marrying men or having kids.

Speaker 2: And don't even get me started about this whole rights thing. What have we come to if you can't demand sexual favors from the people in your employ?

Malcolm Collins: We'll go into specifics in a bit, but that's the gist of it. Women who feel from a feminist and far left perspective done with men. are moving towards a lifestyle of increased chastity.

Now, as you can imagine, and as [00:01:00] we will go over in this, many conservatives are like, yeah, this is what we always wanted you to do. But I think that they are missing something fundamental that's happening here, which is the for B movement, as well as other movements within the progressive cause. Now are almost a laundered conservative movement that is intentionally and not accidentally traditionalist.

So it really hit home this weekend when we were meeting with a bunch of people from the Heritage Foundation and a bunch of Washington conservatives. And a lot of them liked pushing ideas like banning pornography, which is very popular among groups like the 4B movement. The 4B movement is Actually in korea known as a very turfy movement.

It's a very anti trans movement, which we'll get to which I think would surprise a lot of people they're like wait, it's an anti trans movement. So yeah, it's an anti trans movement. So they're they're anti trans. They're they're pro chastity, they [00:02:00] believe that a man is born a man and a woman is born a woman and there's only two genders they are against pornography.

And they have a very traditional role of a woman's value to society. So fundamentally, what is the 4B movement? But a movement that says my core value, like if I wanted to put pressure on society, the core way I would do that is by limiting sexual access to myself. And it also frames sexuality as something that men want from women.

Women and that it is women to distribute. It's not like women want sex and men want sex. It is a very, very traditional view of sexuality, which is sexuality and sex is something women fundamentally don't want or don't want that much. And they can manipulate. their husbands or society by trickling it out.

And I think that what we're seeing here is as the democratic party, and you can see this in the statistics is especially in places like Korea, right? [00:03:00] Where, well, it's not the democratic party. I think it's separate in Korea, but you see women going far one way in voting patterns and men going far another way in voting patterns.

As the parties increasingly become a male party, and a female party, it only makes sense that a traditionalist, conservative, female agenda faction would form within the progressive party. And I think that's what we're beginning to see the rumblings of with the 4B movement. Hmm.

Simone Collins: I may not agree, but I will share my opinions as you share yours.

Malcolm Collins: No, I want to hear your counters this.

Simone Collins: I've watched a bunch of 4B content, especially American commentary after Trump was elected when there was a surge in 4B interest in the United States. And when it comes down to it, in the end, I think this is ultimately, Just another iteration of women tearing other women down to create a more competitive [00:04:00] market for themselves to say, yeah, you know, shave your hair.

Don't wear makeup.

Malcolm Collins: Wait, do you actually believe, like, I could see this hypothetically being a thing, but when I try to model the women who are doing things like shaving their heads or not, not, or the women who are cheering them on, I don't think that they actively see these women as sexual competition.

I know it's not

Simone Collins: conscious. But it's something that happens anyway, if you have a bunch of women sitting around and they're all like, oh, my thighs are so fat. I'm so ugly. Everyone just kind of talks themselves down and then everyone's like, no, you're beautiful. Like you are, you should not wear any makeup.

And you're being nice, but also it wouldn't be terrible if they didn't take that seriously. That much care.

Malcolm Collins: Have you ever caught yourself intentionally engaging in that behavior?

Simone Collins: I just am on autopilot. I'm on auto respond. I'm always just going to say whatever creates the most social harmony. And niceness, but I just get that impression low key.

And [00:05:00] there's a lot going on with the commentary in this movement, but in the end, when you look at research on female interaction and what not words say, but what actions demonstrate women subtly pull each other down. All the time. Like that study with haircuts and more attractive women getting more hair cut off.

This just feels like a market correction among women. Explain the study you just

Malcolm Collins: referenced.

Simone Collins: Researchers had evaluated, and I might butcher this, but the gist of the study was that women who are more attractive in this study were given shorter haircuts than they requested by their hairstylists.

And the supposition is that they were overcorrecting for these women being too pretty and trying to essentially tear them down. And there's also some research suggesting a little bit of discrimination against women in hiring. Krim, you actually did [00:06:00] an interesting analysis of this, a short one on his sub stack, suggesting that a lot of the research on attractiveness and how people are affected is actually correct.

Cluji, because the way that people are rating attractiveness is really subjective and not perfect in many ways in many studies. Some studies are better than others. But anyway, there is, I think, a lot of intrasexual competition among women that is very subconscious and that the 4Bs movement is definitely in part motivated by feminist interests, but for a variety of reasons.

I'm getting a lot more pick me signaling than I am getting,

Malcolm Collins: But who are they signaling the pick me ness to? I mean, look, they're signaling it, and I think this is interesting They're signaling that

Simone Collins: they're extra hard to get, that they're extra desirable, so that when they do hone in on a target That target understands just how high value this woman [00:07:00] is.

She's sworn off all men, which of course almost like makes you a virgin again. Right? She's, she's virginal again. She's, she's unattainable, but she might consider you. And so it gives you an extra bargaining chip on them.

Speaker 20: Virginity. Remember, a virgin body has the morning sheen of an unopened flower. And the freshness of secret springs. It's your choice, ladies. Hold on to your glorious ripe fruit, or

Comprende?

Maybe I shouldn't coach, Wolf. Jerry, if you're worried about your past, don't. This is a great opportunity to start fresh. Even though this morning I thumbed a ride and made a little lunch money? Jerry, I'm giving you a chance to reclaim your virginity.

Speaker 21: Don't think about sex, don't think about sex, don't think about sex.

Hey, Jerry. Lou! I was wondering. Wondering what? Hmm? If you could get me behind the dumpster, hike up my skirt and pound home. Well, I'm a virgin now, and this is one blushing rose you are not gonna [00:08:00] deflower.

Simone Collins: I've actually

Malcolm Collins: seen this in a lot of four B content.

Which is. That they will be like, I am, you know, swearing off men entirely. Unless I find a really good man who has valued aligned with

Simone Collins: who's really good enough. Who's qualified enough. Then he might be because the other issue is that now I would say a huge proportion of this again, is women who are already voluntarily celibate who have for 17 years, not dated men, and they're very happy that way.

But they're not the ones shouting about 4B stuff from the Hilltop. I actually

Malcolm Collins: disagree pretty strongly here. I have noticed, and I see this in the comment section of videos about the majority, at least within the West and the U S people who identify as 4B, many of them were fem cells before this. They were women who were, now it's not that they're unable to find somebody to sleep with them.

It's that nobody who they would qualify as good enough for them is interested in sleeping with them. And now they can re identify. As being a reactionary doing what they were already doing.

Simone Collins: Yes. Then there's definitely a lot of [00:09:00] that is, that is a very real faction of this movement. There's another faction that even, for example, there's a YouTube channel, I think called spoiled girlies or something that is basically red pill for women.

You know, it's about, how does she say it? Like. It's basically just about getting as much resources as you can as a woman and getting that man that you want, I think and she's done multiple videos in the four B's movement and appropriated it and acted as though she's a part of it and she supports it.

And this is about taking back your power. She also talks weirdly about how women hold the power to extinguish entire ethnicities. She literally says that I kid you not. So I will send you a link to that.

Malcolm Collins: I guess she means their own ethnicity, right? Like that's her.

Simone Collins: She's just trying to highlight. In her view, the power that women have so she said she's talking about how we can end the lineages by opting out, how we can literally end ethnicities by opting out. So she's, what really is this woman? [00:10:00] She's Asian , which is, it's an extra bad look. Google, because that's, I mean, yeah, four B is helping to end the ethnicity of South Koreans.

Ha ha.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. It's so interesting. Gist as a tangent here, but I found this really interesting. Is it a, in the prenatal list movement, all of the Asian, like. I know Asians who are active in the pronatalist movement.

None of them have kids or are really trying to have kids, but hilariously many of the most famous pronatalists are married to Asian people and you wouldn't know it and have tons of kids.

But the non Asian partner is the one who's famous specifically here. Both no, You don't name people. I won't name people, but multiple of the most famous pronatalist who you definitely know of, I'd actually say maybe like 50 percent of your pronatalist mental space are people who are having Asian kids and you don't recognize it.

Which is a lot

Simone Collins: of people are anonymous online. But that's okay. YouTuber is [00:11:00] exemplify or this YouTuber exemplifies a genre or a sub faction of poor B. That is basically pick me's or, or women who see men as resources to leverage and are using this movement as a part of that. Also in the way that they talk about it in a way that you see a lot of 4b content online, especially at least from American women, it's super not feminist it because it doesn't, it does not pass a Bechtel test.

Right. Like a Bechdel test in a movie, I think you have to have two female characters talk for longer than five minutes about something other than guys. Okay. And for bees, it's, it's all about the relation to men and it's men in this and men in that. And then it's just all about how women relate to men.

And what I like about MGTOW is at least a lot of the content. It also fails like the male version of a Bechtel test, but the best MGTOW content is just [00:12:00] about building your own life.

Malcolm Collins: Actually, this is really interesting that you mentioned this is that the MGTOW content doesn't masturbate. And I do think that it is masturbatory to an extent.

about all of the women who aren't going to be getting sexual access to them. Whereas, when women go into 4B stuff, it is a constant, almost performative, look at how desired I am and everyone I'm turning away.

Simone Collins: You're right, it's weird. They make tell content that is about women. Is about how terrible women are, whereas it seems the most 4b content I see is still about me, the woman, my power, my womb, my, and, and this, this theme of take back your power.

What on earth? How is, how is isolating yourself in society? taking back your power. That is disempowering you. Well, it's also going to lead to the opposite

Malcolm Collins: of what they want, which is that men who previously they might have communicated their beliefs to are now just not going to be [00:13:00] exposed to a progressive perspective at all.

Yeah. Well, the other

Simone Collins: thing that's crazy too, is this, this concept that they have of we hold the power of life. Well, you don't, if you opt out. Having kids. It's gone. The thing that made you unique from a gender standpoint is completely carved out. And that's another reason why I really don't think these women are taking this seriously.

They plan on getting a guy. They plan on having kids. The

Malcolm Collins: ovaries removed and stuff. Like they're, they're really. Yeah.

Simone Collins: And definitely there's, there's different sub factions of this where they're absolutely the women who are. Basically had always planned on going their own way, and now they have a movement they can put their name to.

But, here's another piece of evidence as to why I think this is more about women who plan on ending up with men anyway. Another name for this movement that American women are giving to it is like the Lysistrata movement. Are you familiar with Lysistrata? Did you have to to talk about it

Malcolm Collins: in detail when I get to the data part of this.

Okay, then

Simone Collins: dive into

Malcolm Collins: it. [00:14:00] You want me to immediately dive into it? Okay, well, no,

Simone Collins: I can, I can talk about it, but I mean, like, the context of it is Lysistrata is a Greek comedy in which women decide to deny sex to men to try to end the Peloponnesian war, but it's a, it's a comedy, it's a joke, and actually Lysistrata herself at one point during the play, when making the pitch, an argument to a man as to why the war needs to end, Is that it is a travesty to young Greek women that the men are off fighting battles depriving these women of the ability to become mothers.

I just there was never a, hold on, hold on, hold on. I'll

Malcolm Collins: go through the full Liz, Liz Ra here. So, okay. This was a play that was performed if you wanna go to our One Civilization video to like, contrast this with other cultures and how far behind they are in 411 BC mm-hmm . It was a comic about a woman's mission to end the Peloponnesian War between the Greek city states.

Yeah. By denying [00:15:00] men. And the, some examples of scenes in it that I found particularly interesting. The magistrate then arrives with some Sicilian archers, the Athenian version of police constables. He reflects on the nature of women, their devotion to wine, promiscuous sex, and exotic cults, such as Sabius and Adonis, but above all, he blames men for the poor supervision of their women folk. So, basically the police comes up to settle everything down and he's like, yeah, but women, wow, they really are getting drunk. And their MLMs

Simone Collins: and their,

Malcolm Collins: yeah. And their weird witchy things is basically what he's saying.

Like, and this is, this is being done. 400 BC, by the way. Then in the part that you're talking about, where she explains that they should feel pity for the young childless women who are aging at home while the men are away on their endless campaigns, the magistrate points out that men also age. In response, she reminds him that men can marry at any age, [00:16:00] whereas a woman only has a short time before she is considered old, which one, I love that.

Like you have this. Feminist, anti feminist argument captured in this, like, almost half a century. Or have a millennial before Christ play which is wild here. And then the debate is continued between the chorus of old men and the chorus of old women until Lysistrata returns to the stage. with news that her comrades are desperate for sex and they are beginning to desert on the silliest of pretexts specifically one example, woman says that she has to go home to air her fabrics by spreading them on the bed.

And in the end, Lysistrata does win and ends up ending the war. But

Simone Collins: Someone needs to make, if they haven't already Like a cheesy porn movie because the whole thing is already basically a really bad porn like content. Like, you could like, you know what, didn't a Spartan show up to the gates with a giant boner or something?

Yes. He shows up with a [00:17:00]

Malcolm Collins: burden they say, but it's an obviously a large boner. Yeah.

Simone Collins: And it just, it's, it's just like, Oh, you've banned me from sex. And like, there are all these, like, it just, it's clearly, it just, it's a very comedic thing. Yeah. Yeah. Almost, almost pornographic play. And the, but the whole thing also is such a joke.

Women didn't have rights at that time. It was just like, ha, ha, ha. Wouldn't it be funny if women, it's like nothing, nothing about women's rights. Yes. And that's, what's so annoying about people like women. Being like, oh, well, this is the Lysistrata movement. Oh, like that joke play about women being idiots and like, oh, wouldn't it be funny if they did this?

They could never do that though, because they don't have any rights. Plus it wasn't even about women not wanting to have sex or have kids because they did. And the whole reason they were trying to stop the war wasn't that they didn't like war. It was that they wanted to have kids. Oh, like clearly this is not a movement that's being taken seriously.

Malcolm Collins: It's not. Maybe, but. I'm not, I'm not, I'm going to go into the history of the movement because I want this to be the, [00:18:00] the all end all source on the movement if you're looking for information. I

Simone Collins: think that the, an important part of this history and I hope that you highlight it too is. the South Korean context, because when it's, when it's moved over to an American context, that's when I feel like the real pantomime begins.

That's when it becomes a complete joke.

Malcolm Collins: Well, we'll, we'll talk about why it becomes a complete joke, because it actually means something completely different when it's being done in an American context. Yes. We've talked about the statistic before, but it's important to reevaluate here, which is that 79. 1 percent of young women and 72.

1 percent of young men want to leave Korea and 83. 1 percent of young women and 78. 4 percent of young men consider Korea hell. That's 83 percent of women in South Korea consider their country and life hell. In fact, they've taken to calling their lives Hell Joseon or that's what, what Korea is for them.

This catchphrase has become popular among Koreans in recent years to describe their country. With a Joseon being the name of a long dead Korean kingdom. So [00:19:00] they also have a new term, Tal Jo, a promptmento compromising leave and Josen, which vernacularly might be translated to escape hell. Now in terms of This exploding was in the U.

S. You had Google searches for the four B movement increased 450 percent following the election. Wow. Yeah. Representing over 200, 000 people searching the term.

No, I had Yeah, I started here was talking about a little bit about the American version and then we'll get to the Korean version. Okay.

Okay

Because I want to point out that this is a real thing that's happening here. So, One person was telling Newsweek, Brooke Arrington, that I fear the Handmaid's Tale will become a reality And she did a popular video on this and you should see our Handmaid's Tale about this video Where I do feel that part of this is sexual role play for women about how desired they are You Oh yeah, taking themselves off the sexual marketplace is going to affect political outcomes and make Trumpers [00:20:00] like change their ways and everything like, well, and it's

Simone Collins: also a great way to feel desired without facing that rejection, because I think a lot of women, if they actually put themselves in the market, they would discover a few people actually want them.

Not just because they themselves are undesirable and you'll see this like a lot of the women who are here who are like I'm gonna take away my beauty is like by shaving my head and it's like dude You do not look that great to start with not to be mean but like I'm just saying on a Dating like very much

Malcolm Collins: a you know The the famous meme of like no man whose lips have touched alcohol will touch these lips.

It's a bunch of like venomous haggadahs

Simone Collins: Well, but anyway, so like already, but this enables them to think, well, if I had tried, if I wasn't removing myself from the market, I would be so desired. And you see things

Malcolm Collins: like a quote from this woman is I plan to do as much de centering of men is possible beyond the groundwork I have already started.

This means not appealing to the male gaze and not allowing [00:21:00] for myself to be part of a system that directly benefits men. So basically, she's just gonna stop trying and not feel bad about stopping trying.

Simone Collins: Well, but again, my point is this is one of the most This is one of the most effective ways to feel as though you are desired or you would have been desired by, by removing the potentiality of rejection.

They can't judge you because you, you intentionally ruined yourself. Your, your, your crop doesn't grow because you intentionally salted the earth. It's not because I'm a bad farmer. It's because I salted the earth. Ha ha. So that's what they're doing. They don't need

Malcolm Collins: to face the emotional consequences for that, which I think, you know, I think they realize now a lot of the women doing this are like, 35 and are like, I'm not going to have kids now.

And I'm like, b***h, you were not going to have kids. You are way too old to find a husband at this point. And it is a way for them to feel like they didn't lose the game. Yes. And

Simone Collins: that's, that's meaningful again. So they're not in the movement. For the movement there in the movement to feel good about themselves for some reason not that we don't do that for everything But [00:22:00]

Malcolm Collins: and as I pointed out was a conservative reaction So this news article, goes over things like bernadine bluntly from texas.

He was a popular instagram influencer says telling women to guard their hearts bodies and wombs for years Whatever causes women to come to the same conclusion is welcome to me. A lot of my Christian conservative followers on social media are beyond thrilled to welcome the American 4b movement Because this is what we've been trying to explain to them for so long Rejecting the sexual revolution mindset of casual sex for your own good when god sets the rules and boundaries It wasn't to withhold freedom and fun from us.

It was to secure protection You and stability and joy. This is the mother of six, who's 34 years old. She goes on to say, Being intentional in your dating and relationship is a game changer. Saving sex for marriage, which you kind of did weirdly, will absolutely level up your life. Being highly selective about which man you'll have and raise children with is [00:23:00] crucial.

And I think that this is really interesting. Mary Harrington went on a long thing about how good this is. Actually Christine Clark, the founder of Girl Defined, which is a biblical woman thing, she said in response to this, who is the one getting punished here? Okay. Yeah. She just says he's the one getting punished. You're basically pointing out that women have sexual desires as well, and you're going to destroy your relationships over this. What are you doing? But I wanted to talk about where this started in Korea because I think that people don't understand how insane this movement was at its beginning.

And you are going to be shocked by this. Hold on, before you

Simone Collins: start this I just want to make sure that some of the groundwork is laid that the 4b movement came after a period that lasted really long that was pretty negative toward women in South Korea, like astoundingly that there was still selective abortion against women.

Female babies in the nineties. That's when you and I were kids. Okay. That is, I mean, [00:24:00] I'm just saying this, the, the background for this is not insane, that, that women have been unliked by Korean culture and I could see people looking to that and being a little mad about it. So I just want to say this isn't coming.

Simone, you're

Malcolm Collins: going to, you're going to feel bad about those words in just a second. All right. So it started out of something called WOMAD. This was around the period from 2017 to 2019. WOMAD was a website for Korean women, sort of similar to Crystal Cafe in the United States, in terms of the ideology of the website that formed after the other Korean feminist website, or WOMAD.

female focused website Meganalia issued a ban on the use of explicit slurs against gay men and transgendered people. So this was all of the extremist women in Korea who didn't want to be on a platform that wouldn't let them use anti gay and transphobic slurs. [00:25:00] Just to give you an idea of How transphobic the movement was to start.

Womad users responded to Discrimination in south korea by mirroring so they attempted to discriminate against men actively and aggressively And so you might be like, oh How bad is that? Well, for example, it's reddit where you can upvote or downvote things The upvote symbol is a swastika by the way You Okay,

Simone Collins: this is very

4chan y.

It's they're going for it. They're going for it.

Malcolm Collins: The favicon for the website is a vulva with a red dot at the center representing both period blood and fire. Now, there have been multiple posts on the site in 2016, for example, around when this was starting that claimed that they had killed men, with titles such as, I fed men coffee mixed with antifreeze [00:26:00] liquid, end quote, and quote, I killed a man by pushing him into a reservoir, end quote.

And you might think that these are just

Simone Collins: I don't know how to pronounce

Malcolm Collins: reservoir. Ugh. You might think that these are just s**t posts. I Yeah. Here's the problem.

Simone Collins: Do they correspond with, they do not correspond with news, or like No, hold on.

Malcolm Collins: In November 19th, 2017, a member wrote a post on the WOMAD forum claiming that she had drugged and graped an Australian boy.

She uploaded photos and videos allegedly portraying the grape. Oh! And WOMAD members showed their support for the writer, leaving comments saying that they would pay to watch the videos of the sexual assault.

Oh!

Now, a number of Korean media outlets have identified the woman as an au pair for an Australian boy.

Wait, so this was a

Simone Collins: young It wasn't We're not talking, like, a boy because they're male. Like, we're talking about underage.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the suspect reportedly [00:27:00] committed the assault two days into her job as, as an au pair. And in the post, which was made in the Korean language, the netizen says that she had been biding her time to quote, have a taste of a Western boy since living in Australia in quote and quote now what's interesting is that while some things I said, oh, this doesn't look like she was an au pair.

She said, quote, where I work has various facilities linked together, and this includes residences with an outdoor pool. A cute boy kept catching my eye at the pool, and I've set my mark on him, end quote. The suspect was arrested Monday after she posted a detailed account on a Korean extremist misandry website of her.

The post claimed that she drugged and graped her victim, which she did by crushing up sleeping pills and included screenshots. The WOMAD members defended her claiming that Aram Lee was innocent. And conducted an online fundraiser for her [00:28:00] lawyer appointment. In addition, they sent a petition to the Australian police to release Armin Lee and protested the victim's parents.

Now they, specifically what they claimed is that, quote, Lolita is a crime, Shotokan is a member of sexual preference. So if you don't know, Lolita is when you find underage women attractive, Shotokan is when you find underage men attractive.

Wow.

So

She did this. It was proven. And the forum supported her and fundraised for her and asked her to send a video.

Simone Collins: Is this the female fortune equivalent of This is the 4chan experience. Female comedians aren't funny, right? So like, female comedians aren't funny,

Speaker 4: Say something funny, Wendy. We can't wait. I'm not funny. Hey, girls are funny, Wendy, okay? Get over it. Just do women's comedy stuff, you know, talk about how fat you are and how you want to have sex with guys and then say, My vagina a [00:29:00] lot. I don't feel like being funny right now. And that's just the kind of sexist bullcrap that's going to keep you in the kitchen.

Sit your ass down. This isn't a joke, you guys. Girls are funny.

Simone Collins: and female 4channers, when they troll, it's just really, really disturbing.

4chan has always been pretty accepting of women. Yeah, well, yeah, when 4chan trolls, it's like, oh, let's let's find the flag that Shia LaBeouf has tried to To hide and then when a lot of women like

Malcolm Collins: creepy Chan and stuff like that, there's been a lot of women who've been treated with respect on 4chan.

If they buy into it, I'm not

Simone Collins: saying that 4chan is misogynist. I'm just saying that 4chan codes really male. And so even women on it are acting like

Malcolm Collins: fortune has never done anything like this.

Simone Collins: Yeah. And that's, that's what I'm saying. It's just like female comedians. Aren't funny. The female 4channers like the female version of it.

It just does really creepy, bad stuff instead of fun, cool stuff.

Malcolm Collins: It's just like evil, evil

Simone Collins: s**t. Yeah. Just women, just women seem to be ruining. There are [00:30:00] just some things, some areas where women just shouldn't, shouldn't play. And there are some places where men suck. I'm not saying this is, you know, it goes just one way, but man, women know your limits.

Speaker: The lady has foolishly attempted to join the conversation with a wild and dangerous opinion of her own. What heartbreak drivel. See how the men look at her with utter contempt. Daphne, we're going home.

Women, know your limits.

Malcolm Collins: I note here that the 4b movement came out of the escape the corset movement which is

Simone Collins: reasonable considering the beauty standards in south korea The the amount of money that the average south korean woman spends on cosmetics and beauty treatments annually is is off the chain I think there is a completely logical market correction I also think that it has nothing to do with men and to frame the anti corset movement or whatever they call it that 2016 origins backlash against it.[00:31:00]

Dolling yourself up in South Korea has more to do with with lashing back against consumerism and also women's standards women wear makeup for women. They do not wear makeup for men. They pretend that they do, but no, no, no, they wear it for they wear it for female audiences.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, and I think here what's really interesting is that the 4B movement in the United States is fighting for something fundamentally different than what the 4B movement in Korea is.

So the no sex part of the Korean 4B movement is mostly because in Korea, sex is the first stage of the funnel that leads to marriage. not to deny men casual sex. So if you look at rates of casual sex, around 66 percent of American women have casual sex. Only 13. 1 percent of Korean women have casual sex.

It is very rare. As the one article stated, four B's concern is primarily was rejecting the institution of marriage, says Jung, with the other B's following naturally. Quote, the inevitable result of the rejection of marriage, end [00:32:00] quote, says Jung. Quote, why? In a conservative society in South Korea, dating is largely considered, especially by men, the prelude to marriage.

And marriage, the prelude to childbirth. So for many who wish to remain single and childless, you end up not dating either, end quote. American women, in contrast, are more so calling for the rejection of casual sexual relationships.

But I find that really interesting, and it fundamentally shows a sort of misunderstanding of the movement and what it's about by the American audience. Because Well, yeah, I just, for me,

Simone Collins: the movement, the four beats, and I, I think it's unfair to take an extremist Misinterest online forum and say that that's representative of the four B movement.

It was the

Malcolm Collins: majority of the movement, Simone. I just, the four B movement is mostly something that was created in the Western imagination. Out of the types of people who went on this form. It never had more than I think like 4, 000 members or something. It was not that big [00:33:00] in South Korea. I'd also note here that it's largely been replaced in South Korea by something called the 6B4T movement where they added a few additional things, specifically not buying products viewed as sexist and supporting others within the movement whereas the T is about rejecting things like beauty standards, hyposexualization, religion, and idol culture.

So, you know, generally, these are the people we want removing themselves from the genetic pool, like we are obviously benefiting from this. You can see our video on cooking and like these people are cooking themselves. But Simone, I wanted to hear your thoughts.

Simone Collins: Like I said, I still think that they're.

Are there are very South Korea specific reasons why some women would be having a backlash and why they're, it's just, it's very complicated, but then it's being appropriated in the US by a bunch of people seeking attention and trying to justify their existing indulgent actions and make them look.

Ideologically [00:34:00] driven similarly to people who argue that they aren't having children for the environment. Now they're saying, well, I'm not having children because of four B's. That's an excuse and it's signaling and it's not actually something that people take seriously as it's indicated by the way that it's presented

Malcolm Collins: Well, I actually think that you you capture something really powerful here, which is to say that these individuals.

Largely speaking I had already removed themselves from the gene pool. They had already removed themselves from the gene pool when they decided to live a life of casual sex into their mid thirties. Like you're definitely not going to end up married if you're doing that. Like I'm not personally like necessarily against casual sex.

When individuals are like, let's say below the age of 25 and they're trying to, you know, it's very hard to get partners without it in today's dating economy. I'm not saying it's the best thing. I'm just saying that it is hard to get partners without it. So I understand the challenge that young people are going through.

But if you are having casual sex post the age of [00:35:00] 25, there's basically no shot you're going to get married realistically. No shot you're going to be part of the next generation. No thought you're going to be, you know, and I think that these are people who had already opted out of everything. Now they're just like adding a different flavor to what they were already doing.

And I note here back to my original thesis, because I do believe it. I think that there is a faction of the Democratic Party that is becoming a traditionalist conservative faction that is anti sex, that is anti porn, that is anti trans people, that is, Two genders but that is also solidly Democrat because they want these state resources because they don't expect to look for a husband either and they don't want to, you know, support themselves.

So they're like, okay, who's going to support me? And I think that this faction represents A new political entity that people are like, ha, ha, ha. They're accidentally conservative where I think, no, ha, ha, ha. They're intentionally conservative, [00:36:00] but still Democrat. You just don't understand how much the parties have flipped.

Thoughts on that thesis.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. One. And, and as I think we'll discuss in some future podcasts. The nature of conservatism has changed, and there are now new factions that people don't really understand yet. But I'm just, I'm still so, I'm kind of disappointed also in this movement and the lack of modeling the other side that is being demonstrated once again by some kind of reactionary movement.

And that women are taking back their power and thinking that this is so punishing toward men when they're really just hurting themselves. Andrew Tate tweeted something along the lines of now you don't even need abortions. Like he, this doesn't hurt anyone except for them. And it's disappointing that we have reached a point at which many [00:37:00] people don't understand.

They don't have the. Tool set to model what other people would be thinking or how they would react to them. They can only think of things in terms of themselves. And we've seen this with our toddlers that there is this point at which they begin to realize that there are other people who have their own perspectives and wants and needs.

And it's so exciting when they get out of that phase of everything being only in relation to themselves and their wants, and they can't possibly understand that people might see things differently or view them from a 3rd party perspective. It's scary that I'm seeing TikTok videos of people, presumably in their 20s and 30s.

Who don't seem to have gone beyond that toddler phase, or if they ever did get there, it's, they've reverted back to this proto phase of everything in terms of themselves.

Malcolm Collins: And that's scary. Well, you see this on the male side in Korea as [00:38:00] well. Are you familiar with the finger pinching conspiracy theory?

Simone Collins: Oh, yes, where they think that every time someone poses like there's a photo of them, they're trying to make some dig at men.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So in Korea, it's like considered incredibly offensive to like make this sign. Cause it implies you

Simone Collins: have a small penis, right?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. If it's accidentally made in an ad or something like that, men will actually go protest. Like men. Yeah. Yeah. Like large groups of men will actually protest in front of like companies because somebody in a like a video game accidentally had this depiction being made.

They see it as an extremely offensive symbol. Like in the U. S., like if you accidentally put a swastika in something it is really interesting. Actually, probably bigger than in the U. S. if you accidentally put a swastika in something.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that's weird. But also, yeah, I think that Is another indication of what's going on in South Korea.

They've got this whole different set of baggage that, [00:39:00] that. is now reverberating off itself. What

Malcolm Collins: started the four B movement in South Korea was the murder of a woman, a young woman by somebody who felt that they were angry at society because women didn't want to date them. And then when they were trialed and they were put in jail for 30 years, cause it's not an automatic life sentence for murder in Korea.

They were not given a jail sentence. for a hate crime. And that really pissed off a lot of women in like, these forums as to why it was not considered a hate crime. I find this pretty interesting. And actually compelling for my professors at first. I was like, yeah, that seems like a hate crime.

Well, it turns out the guy had pretty severe schizophrenia. And they were like, it's obviously a mental health issue. Like, and I'm like, okay, you, I used to work with people with schizophrenia. That was my job, studying schizophrenia. And yeah, I wouldn't really hold one of them accountable for something they said that was offensive by mainstream societal standards.

I remember one of our patients killed a random person because he thought they were a witch. Like, Oh,

Simone Collins: yeah, yeah. Not very [00:40:00] political. I mean, unless, I don't know. It's

Malcolm Collins: not a hate crime in the way that they mean hate crime. It's like, yeah, there's hate, but it's, it's crazy hate. So it's crazy hate. It's not like a logical hate.

Anyway. Love you to decimone. Are you going to go for beyond me? Are you gonna,

Simone Collins: I,

Malcolm Collins: I,

Simone Collins: if I make some kind of rebellion someday, I, it's going to have to be a lot smarter than that. And I'm not the brightest bulb in the bucket, but I'm not going to, this was just such a self owned and it hurts.

Malcolm Collins: Have you started making Malcolm type mixed metaphors?

I'm trying to. You're not the brightest bulb in

Simone Collins: the bucket. I really love your mixed metaphors and I'm just trying to, trying to like make it a family thing. You know, this is a Collins way of speaking. We have to have our weird, like, Cult speak, right? So, right. Part of it.

Malcolm Collins: What's even the point of being in a cult if you don't have your weird way of talking?

Simone Collins: Yeah, then how [00:41:00] do they know that you're in a cult aside from the clothing and everything else that's weird about us? I really had

Malcolm Collins: to find out more about this Romanian thing that you told me. So apparently our podcast is the seventh most popular podcast in Romania. By some statistics, English language podcast.

And I want to figure out what's going on there. Like why? So if you're in

Simone Collins: Romania, please tell us why you're watching, but we're really glad that you're here.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I've noticed we do have an unusually large user base in Southeastern Europe, which is interesting. Part of me wonders that maybe like Russian bots have accidentally been promoting us.

Oops.

Simone Collins: I don't know. Have we said that many pro Russia things?

Malcolm Collins: No, we're pretty anti Russia. So, to the extent where I feel a little bad about it, you know, like the only group we're probably more anti than anti Russia on this podcast is Catholic. And like, those are like the two things we're probably known for is like having a bias.

No, we don't actually have a real bias against these groups. Like I like Russians and everything like that, but they're the two groups that I like. joke about the most [00:42:00] because in terms of like opposing sports teams, they're like the two clearest opposing sports teams to our particular product in American faction right now.

Simone Collins: Well, your kids are part Russian. You better be okay with that.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, Simone's part Russian, so, but anyway.

Simone Collins: What am I making you for dinner?

Malcolm Collins: What are you making me for dinner? I really don't know what you're planning for tonight.

Simone Collins: I could do

Malcolm Collins: I want leftovers. I mean, I'm just gonna do I love? Hold on. I know what I want for dinner tonight.

Simone Collins: Yeah? Oh, I could cut up the sausage into fried rice. triangles of it.

Malcolm Collins: No,

Simone Collins: no.

Malcolm Collins: soup and girl chief.

Simone Collins: That So

Malcolm Collins: spectacular girl chees through the tomato soup.

Simone Collins: All right, it's on, I'll you pick up the kids? Yea I love you,

Malcolm Collins: Malcolm. I lo[00:43:00]

Simone Collins: And you are the perfect husband and I love you and you're really pretty. And I'm glad that I cut you.

Malcolm Collins: You can't end on the nice thing. I love your

Simone Collins: voice and I love your wiggles. And I love the strange sound that you make when you're falling asleep. That sounds like a surfacing whale. You go.

I just dunno why you do it, but it's so cute.

I just love you. I just love you. It's so annoying. My favorite thing is the sound you make when you chew. It's so cute. Oh my God. Why are you like this?

Malcolm Collins: I don't know. It's weird. You gotta get, no, honestly, I'm not okay with this. My wife's, my wife is gay. I need to handle this.

Simone Collins: I'm super gay for you. Yeah.

What you gonna do anyway though? I love you. I'll see you downstairs. See you.

Malcolm Collins: I got the Krampus costume. I had to buy a different hat than the one I wanted, a different face than the one I wanted, because the one I wanted wasn't going to arrive until after Christmas. But the one I ended up getting is even more goat like and elaborate, so.

As long as it's goat like, [00:44:00] that's kind of the rule. Oh, it's very goat like.

Speaker 14: Outside of

Speaker 13: the dark?

Speaker 14: And Krampus has huge claws. It even

Speaker 13: has a

Speaker 14: mask on

Speaker 13: it. Yeah. Do you think he was like a mystery? Were you trying to solve him like a mystery monster?

Speaker 14: I think it's Krampus, Mommy.

Speaker 13: You think it's Krampus?

Speaker 14: Yes, I hide under it.

Speaker 13: You're hiding under your banquets? Oh my gosh. , Dad's asleep. He always goes to sleep early.

Speaker 14: Actually, Dad just dressed up in a monster costume.

Speaker 13: That's a really interesting mystery solving proposition, but I think it was Krampus.

Speaker 6: What are you guys up to? [00:45:00] You're gonna take a ride on it? Where are you gonna go? I'm