Navigating Assertiveness and Niceness in Leadership

Can being "nice" at work actually hold you back? Join Brian and Scott Dunn as they unravel the myths around workplace "niceness," explore the balance between kindness and assertiveness, and reveal how honest communication can earn you respect—and maybe even that long-overdue promotion.

Overview

In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian and Scott dig deep into the question: Do nice guys (or gals) really finish last at work?

They discuss the critical balance between being accommodating and assertive, why conflict can be a tool for growth, and how emotional intelligence plays into team dynamics.

With stories, tips, and the psychological truths behind professional success, this episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to navigate workplace interactions while staying true to themselves.

References and resources mentioned in the show:

Scott Dunn
Bill of Assertive Rights
Elements of Agile
Radical Candor
Advanced Certified ScrumMaster®
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This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Scott Dunn is a Certified Enterprise Coach and Scrum Trainer with over 20 years of experience coaching and training companies like NASA, EMC/Dell Technologies, Yahoo!, Technicolor, and eBay to transition to an agile approach using Scrum.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back and we're here for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today we have friend of the show, buddy of the show, Scott Dunn is back with us. Welcome in Scott.

Scott (00:13)
Hey Brian, great to be back as always. Love it.

Brian (00:17)
Love to have Scott on as always and if you've listened to some of the past episodes with him then you know why. If not, I encourage you to check it out after this episode. We wanted to have Scott on earlier this year just to talk about some things that might be percolating in a few people's heads with the turn of the year and kind of as you start to prepare and look forward and maybe even look back a little bit in things. And particularly deal with an issue around how people show up at work and Scott was saying to me earlier, kind of this phrase about, nice guys finish last? Do they finish first? Do they finish last? Can you be nice? Can you be nice at work and be promoted? Can you be nice at work and move upwards? Or do you have to not be nice?

Scott (01:03)
you

Brian (01:11)
in order to do that. So tell me a little bit about kind of the genesis of the idea from you, Scott. What have you been hearing or what's been crossing your path?

Scott (01:17)
Yeah, and I'm so glad we had a chance to talk about this because it's recent. So the first thing that sparked my thought on this, so granted in the leadership class, we talk about being a balance of accommodative and assertive, and I'll usually refer to a... a document called the Bill of Assertive Rights. And I was reading another book this week and actually it referenced the same thing. I thought, switching fast forward a few days and I'm doing an assessment with a company that's asked for help because they're not, they're struggling with quality, they're struggling with predictability. And I know what the leaders goals are for the efforts. And so now I'm meeting with all the team members to do an actual formal assessment for baseline. Now, and this assessment, you're going to go through, I don't know, 30, 40 questions. So it's not lightweight. It's trying to be tactical, like, Is the team well formed? Is the backlog in good shape? Do you have a roadmap? Are the leaders supporting the change? I mean, whether company level, product level, team level, and we even added some advanced questions. And the fascinating thing is over a course of all these questions, the answer was essentially, we're okay at that, right? If you ask them, are they doing this practice or not, they'd say, somewhat. And it didn't matter if it was the most basic thing at the team level or the most advanced thing at the corporate level, everything was okay. So when you look at the dashboard at the end, in our normal red, yellow, the whole thing was yellow. And so I just paused and said, you know, I've never seen this before. I said, yeah, I joke with them a little bit about that, but I said, you know, my friends kind of think about it. It actually doesn't make sense that you would be okay at the fundamental beginning things and also okay at advanced high level things. So it's usually progressive, right? You get the basics down like the satiric change curve. That's kind of what we're following. So now... And then what came out later in the conversations is that someone said basically, we're afraid to say things that are hard to hear. He used the word judgment. Like we don't want to kind of stand in judgment of others, but essentially saying something that someone's not going to hear, whether it's true or not, because they had nothing green, nothing red. So not doing well. And then the last thing that really got me triggered, you know, really start diving into this is this new year and people are getting this promotions and things going on at some of the companies. And there was a story of this one guy, like, I've worked here eight years and never been promoted. And yet everyone loves this person. Everyone likes this person. And I'm hopping on social media and someone asked that question, literally, like, give me an example of when nice guys finish last. And the guy said the same thing. He said, I am the one everyone goes to for help. I'm always ready to help. I'll do anything anyone needs. Everyone likes me. They all praise me. And I haven't been promoted in like 13 years. So partly for our own careers, partly for, you know, being a change agent, et cetera, I thought it'd be worth, you know, just having to... It's a great conversation topic,

Brian (03:51)
Yeah, well, I'll confirm part of that, or at least a couple of crossovers there with what you said, because there's an assessment kind of thing that we do at Mountain Good as well called Elements of Agile. And one of the things we learned early on in doing that was you would pull the data from the survey, from actually asking them. But then before we present it back, we always have a coach who kind of does interviews as well, and then manually can shift and adjust things. And one of the things I've learned as being one of those coaches who does that is if there's something that's negative that's said, if there's, you know, we give like a five point scale, you know, five is really great, one is terrible, and you know, what number is it? If it's a little bit over into the negative side, you never get anything that's like all the way over at one, right? Nobody ever comes back to you and says, that's terrible.

Scott (04:44)
you

Brian (04:46)
but they will say, that's a three or that's a two. If it's a two, that's severe. That's kind of what I've learned is two is severe, three is bad. And you kind of have to shift those things over one notch to say, people are, their niceness are entering into this and they don't want it to be, they don't want it to look too bad. They don't know how it's gonna reflect on them. They don't know how it's gonna reflect on others. And so they don't want it to look

Scott (04:50)
Yeah. Okay. Yes.

Brian (05:15)
too bad, so they tend to like skew it a little bit towards the positive. Yeah.

Scott (05:20)
Yes, and the thing I think is good from that so one I keep coming back to you know self preservation this world kind of wired for this and someone was mentioning recently It's you know, shouldn't say people are selfish. We should say they have self in the center So if I'm gonna I'm just with you like if I'm gonna give feedback I'm honestly just pass facts or for those listening. I think it's totally fine say well Is it really worth it for me to say something that I'm going to have to end up explaining if a manager figures out that was me that said it because I'm the only one working on that project or whatever, right? In some ways, you're like, no, it's not worth it. I'll just kind of gently say it's not going great. Like you said, it's almost like that bell curve you got shifted over because, the professor's like, there's only, I'll only give out two A's each semester because that's truly exceptional. And so it moves it. It's a little like that. But then when you and I were talking earlier, you mentioned that conflict quadrants. And I thought that was really great because I think that's a clear structure that people could refer to as well. It's kind think about how they have interactions not just at work, but seriously in our other relationships. thought I was looking at like, man, this is so fitting. So I just thought that was a good tool to share as well.

Brian (06:18)
Yeah, it's interesting to see how that kind of affects people and how that affects their answers and how it affects how they're reporting. And there's a crossover here as well, because I know if you've listened to this podcast for a while, last year I did a talk on conflict management and kind of how to navigate that a little bit from a team lead or a Scrum Master kind of perspective. And it's a very sticky area that I think there's not enough training and there's not enough kind of education in. And one of the kind of interesting things that comes out from that, or came out from that conversation was, well, a couple things. One is that conflict, oftentimes we attempt to avoid it entirely, but that's a big mistake. Conflict is actually necessary for growth and if there's not any conflict then you get the kind of bad situation of we never question each other, we never challenge each other. There's a story about how that was actually something that happened at Chernobyl. A lot of the research kind of pointed to that's actually part of the root cause of why that happened is that they were all experts in their field and so they had such respect for each other that they didn't question each other when something was gonna go wrong. And so they miss this kind of basic tenet of, no, if I see something that's not, doesn't look right, I should speak up. And it may cause conflict, but it's necessary. It's necessary for us to be better.

Scott (07:44)
Right. Absolutely. And that quadrant that the Thomas Kilman model is so great because, for me, well, two things was one, I love it that they can say, hi, be highly assertive. You can still be highly cooperative. And that's that collaborative environment. So if we're really trying to create solutions, whether that's at work or in our relationships, then you're gonna have to assert, you be assertive and not that I'm gonna raise my voice, but I should share what I think or my opinion or if I disagree. And I think some of that when I was coming back down to it is there's still a tendency for people to feel like I need to be in the goodwill of others, right? So from the, you know, the 10, the bill of assertive rights, the 10 assertive rights, that's one of them. Like I need to be independent of the goodwill of others so I can be honest. I'm not trying to be, we can do this respectfully and winsomely and not be a jerk. But you have to let go of, if I say something I don't like, that would be bad. Or if I say something that makes someone happy, right? And I used to struggle with that. I don't want them to be sad. I don't want them to be upset, right? So now back to that quadrant, I'm not asserting myself and I'm obviously not helping them, so I'm just avoiding. And I'm avoiding the situation. It's the elephant in the room in these meetings. And now everyone's almost like, as a culture, we're kind of in cahoots. We all agree we're not gonna say anything, which makes it even tougher for anyone else not to kind of stand up and do just what you're saying, which I think is absolutely true. Speaking of that, so.

Brian (09:07)
Yeah, well, and just to clarify, too, I mean, you're talking about the Thomas Killen model. If people aren't familiar with that, basically, it's five different responses that people typically have to conflict in one way, form. When they encounter conflict, it's competing, collaborating, avoiding, compromising, or accommodating. those are kind of the, there are variances between anything like that. There's going to be some gray levels between them. Those are kind of the basic points. And I was telling Scott earlier, one of the things we talk about in our ACSM is when we present this information is that you kind of have to get out of your head the idea that any of these are bad. For example, the competing approach to things, the competing approach says, my relationship with the person is not as important as my stance on whatever this issue is. I cannot budge from my position. And I will jeopardize the relationship if that's what's required. That's a competing approach. And you initially read that and think, that's wrong. Nobody should take that kind of approach to a conflict. And in general, that should be our default kind of approach to conflict. But there are times when that's the right approach. When someone says something that's completely out of bounds, completely out of line, I'm going to take a competing approach. And there are times when people need to

Scott (10:08)
Mm-hmm. you Okay.

Brian (10:30)
to be presented with that for their own good. That they kind of recognize, wow, this is so important that he's willing to kind of not have a relationship with me anymore if this continues. And that's important, I think. Yeah.

Scott (10:41)
Yes. yeah, and I think that those examples of the people that get promoted, someone else had referenced and said essentially, it's you telling the, you know, I won't say the ugly truth, but. The thing that no one else is saying, your ability to say what no one else is saying to someone in leadership or management earns their trust. So at some level, whoever is the leadership whisperer, telling the truth on some of these things, and there was only one slot that's gonna influence and lead us to be promoted into, right? I've gotta know, if I'm wise as a senior exec, I gotta have the wisdom to know that I know lots of people probably just tell me what I wanna hear. I'm looking for the person who tells me maybe what I don't wanna hear.

Brian (10:58)
Ha

Scott (11:24)
It does it in nice way again though. From that standpoint, I can see why some of those people get promoted and some don't because you're so nice they actually don't trust you. Because you're not, to your point, I'm not willing to have conflict. I'm not willing to gamble what you might think of me for the sake of the betterment of everyone else. So there's some part where I think it's good. My takeaway looking at some of this is come back around to say, all right, check yourself when you have these conversations, just do that mental pause and say, Are you truly acting independent of what they might think? You know, do you have their best sensors or harder? Are you okay if they might respond a certain way? But it's almost like check that I'm outcome independent. So I'm being straight up and honest with them. Cause in this case, doing this assessment, try to work with the team, like, well, how hard is it to help the team or help anyone else who's actually not being honest about where things are? I don't have anything to work with now, right? Or like, yeah, I got to just take what they say is not great and then slide it down. So I recognize. And honestly, it's actually bad, but for all of us and the change, not just for our careers, but as change leaders anyways, checking that we're comfortable doing that. think growing that comfort, know, comfortability we can do. And I think it's just great for the career. And I see people getting promoted in these opportunities. Absolutely worth it.

Brian (12:37)
Well, there's one other story I want to share here that kind of is, this is a story from my past, one of the jobs I worked at. There was a project that we worked on that a lot of people probably will identify with this. The managers in the organization had set a deadline for it without talking to the people who actually were going to do it. from the, yeah, right. And from the very start, my developers that,

Scott (12:56)
No.

Brian (13:01)
that worked with me there on it were saying, this is impossible. It's not just that this is a little bit off, it's completely impossible. There's no way that we're going to do this. But the managers were like, well, you'll get it done. You'll get it done. And so they went forward and publicized the schedule and went all the way up to the top of the company. And the CEO knew that that was the timeline. And well, the CEO found himself in an elevator with one of my developers at one point.

Scott (13:17)
Board.

Brian (13:30)
just to ask him, hey, how's that project going? And my developer kind of sighed a little bit and said, well, you do you want the truth? Do you want the picture that everyone's painting? And he was like, well, obviously, I always want the truth. And so he told him, and he had a phrase that he used there that has stuck with me to this day. And that is, he said, bad news is not like wine. It doesn't get better with age.

Scott (13:40)
Wow. Yeah.

Brian (13:57)
And I think that's an important thing to keep in mind is that when there's something wrong, when there's something that's not right, the sooner we can identify it and shed light on it, the faster we can do something about it, the more options we have to do something about it. And the closer it is to when it's due or when we're supposed to have that thing happen or whatever, the less that we can do about it. So I'll even give a shout out. know. I can't imagine he's listening, but.

Scott (13:58)
Ooh. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Brian (14:25)
But that was a guy named Dave Ellet. So Dave, if you're listening, it's still stuck with me to this day. But that's a great phrase. And I think it's really apparent here. mean, being a nice guy, it's nicer, I think, to make sure that people understand the truth than it is to let the deception go on.

Scott (14:29)
Ha ha. Yeah, so two things on that Brian is one totally agree with you It might be hard to deliver some of this news But if you fast forward how much harder it will be for them when they have no time to make adjustments for the customer or the DNA Right and I'll tell them that right especially the product owner class You do me no favors by giving me like a week or two to tell the customer actually No, tell me now six months out that there might be some concerns, right? That's a lot easier. It's not easy, but man. It gets a lot worse That's one. I love way there's the example does not get better with age. The other thing is I think on a personal level, those who are not maybe saying what should be said or needs to be said or giving people that kind of, you know, honest feedback, you know, would you rather know now or in your performance review that there's a problem to not tell them that is in some ways what I was feeling for me is I'm actually now trying to control the optics I've seen. So it's actually a weird, it can be seen as a weird way of like, I'm just being selfish. So I'm actually not a nice guy. I'm a guy with these covert contracts about I want you to think this of me, so therefore I'm actually telling you the truth as your own coworker or peer about something that's really important you should know about, or my manager. I'm actually making sure that I, you know, take me first and take care of myself, but actually in a very short-term way out of fear versus a good worker would tell the truth and as I'm saying, probably he has more career opportunities by being one of the few people that. is a truth-telling organization like your developer and with the elevator to CEO because think about what CEO thinks of him now as well as what CEO now thinks about all the other one else is saying like, no, we're on track, we're on track, right? Those just probably reversed opinion in his ideas in his head about who he can trust to tell the truth about where things are going in these critical projects. So great example, great example.

Brian (16:29)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think that gets to kind of the heart of this topic too. mean, you think you're talking about, you know, can you be nice? And if you're nice, is it possible to be recognized and still move ahead? And to me, think there's, this is where it starts to get really deeply psychological because I think you have to question what is your definition of nice? You know?

Scott (16:47)
Hmm.

Brian (16:53)
Because I think some people have a misaligned definition of what it means to be nice. I don't think it's nice to allow the deception to go on. I think that's not nice. I think that's something that, you know what I mean? You don't appreciate, like you said, as a product owner, as the leader in the organization, that's not nice to them to let that go on. And we might sit back and say, I'm not going to...

Scott (17:14)
No.

Brian (17:20)
I'm not going to raise red flags. I'm not going to be the squeaky wheel. I'm going to be the guy who just gets by because I'm a nice guy. We're using guy, but please understand. It's just a term. It's just a phrase that applies to women as much as it does men. So I'm not saying the gender specific thing here. Please, please forgive us for that. But just that that's kind of the concept behind it is I don't want to make waves. I want to be the nice person in this organization. I want to be seen as nice.

Scott (17:40)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brian (17:45)
your definition of nice might need to be readjusted.

Scott (17:48)
Yeah, huge point. think that kind of those words matter. And I think if someone would look at what they like, re-evaluate what you think is going to get you where you want to go, as well as what you would want from others as a teammate. then, and then for me, what I have to do is I have to backtrack and say, so why did you not say anything in the meeting? There's a time way back when I was working with the manager in the meeting that he was very supportive of what his colleague was sharing and the idea of someone she's presenting it to the other peers and the VP, everyone liked it except for one person who spoke out. because that one person, you know, the VP put the whole thing on hold afterwards. just asked that manager said, I thought you liked her idea. He said, yeah, no, I liked her idea a lot. So when the other person says something, why, why didn't you say something back? Right. And said, you stand up for what you thought was a good idea. What she was saying. But was the same idea of like, don't want to make any waves. But he said later, goes, that was the most important question I had to be asked about. I do need to speak out. I do need to be assertive in these meetings and say what my view is too, not just what they say, go along to get along. Like, and now we're just letting, you know, projects and this should go off track, right? No one's calling it for what it is.

Brian (18:52)
Ha Right. Yeah. So I think it's possible.

Scott (18:57)
So I think, yeah, that part.

Brian (18:59)
Sorry, I was just gonna say, I think it's perfectly possible to be assertive at certain points and take strong stances on certain things, but not compromise your niceness. I don't think that makes you a mean person. It may not make you everyone's favorite person every moment of the day, but it's nicer. People respect people who are honest.

Scott (19:25)
That's a good word, respect. Right. Right. Yeah. I wish there was a secondary word and we can be friendly in these other things. and I love what you said. Like it may be nice to not tell the, you know, you think it's nice, but people should know those things that they're not hearing. And that part's not nice. I think that aspect of maybe self-preservation to the detriment of others and then re-examining why, why do I feel like I need to do that? You know, for me, that was probably at work as well. Right. Is it, what was one person said? Harm versus hurt. This might hurt them in the moment, but it doesn't harm. So the shot to the dentist, the needle, that does hurt, but it's not harming them. Sugar tastes great, doesn't hurt at all, but it harms you. So kind of maybe reflect back on what does it mean to have your peers, your colleagues, your company's best interest at heart, and then what keeps us from that, right? And what are we looking out for? Are we that risk anyways? Yeah. In any case, I like that tool. I'm glad you brought that up.

Brian (20:19)
Yeah, I think there's also, I think it's important to say, know, like this with a lot of things, there's a balance. And we probably, know Scott, you probably have had this as well, but I've had a couple of people I've worked with throughout my career who just, they weren't concerned about being the nice person. They were much more of the outspoken and they would say things very bluntly when something was not going.

Scott (20:25)
Mm-hmm. You

Brian (20:43)
in a good direction. I think that's where NICE enters the equation, right? NICE is not letting it go, but NICE is being able to cushion a little bit what it is you're saying so that it's not just a slap across the face, but it's more of just maybe we want to reconsider that. Maybe we want to think about that, or have we thought of, or have we considered what the implication might be in this area. That's a much more digestible way of taking in that kind of news than it is to just say, well, that sucks, or that's going to be terrible, or you're going to fail miserably at that. And I've had people I've worked with who that's the kind of way that they respond.

Scott (21:14)
Yeah, right. Yeah, almost like a judgmental view of that. It comes across and I think some people maybe miss that. I know there's a big, you know, space on emotional IQ or EQ. I think that that's really valid and kind of checking yourself on that. I think some people don't read those. signals or they'll say like, well, someone needs to say it. Well, you didn't have to say it like that though, because we, I think we all want to be effective. So if we're not careful, then you, might be true, but they're not hearing you now. So you're still not effective in what you want to do, which is communicate that concern. So there is some part and that's what I like about radical candor. We do want empathy and we do want to care. So what you're kind of touching on, which I think is really great. If you take it that away, then we're just going to, we could actually make things even worse. So it's not a license. partly I see happen a lot and maybe you've been in these meetings and my friends listening, you know, you probably have too, where something said that you can tell there's a lot more underneath that, like that person's just mad, right? You can just tell bitterness or resentment or something's coming out. And again, other people can read that and it's not helpful. One, probably doesn't help you get your idea across, but two, it's just not helpful for you or to carry that around. So for me, I'm always trying to catch it like, is there emotion underneath this, if so? You gotta deal with that. Like you might need to wait to say this until there's not, you don't feel that emotion coming across. Cause then those things get said like you'd said under the guise of, I'm just trying to be honest with them. But look, that was a lot more that wasn't necessary and there's emotion. We've all sometimes worked at places with people that maybe wrote us the wrong way, or you've been a certain job for a long time and it can kind of bubble out in those meetings. So again, a great opportunity to kind of check and say, Where's my emotional bandwidth as I go and have this conversation? And I think also, what do you want? What do you want from the outcome of these things? Some we can control, some we can't. I might want to raise, but I'm not in control of that. But I'm in control of what time I show up, what I'm reading for work, being ready for meetings. I'm in control of that, and hopefully those things could come. So also, I know it's near the beginning of the year, get opportunity on goals and being clear about what you want. Because I think if we don't have a true north for ourself, it's easy to be what everyone else wants at the workplace. We don't actually have a sense of self anyway. So yeah, sure. I'll do whatever you want for me. And it's not even maybe, you know, maybe helping me move forward as well or maybe I'm sacrificing. So that's good timing for that as well for folks who are into doing goals or you have your, you know, 2025 roadmap in front of you. It might be a personal growth area. think it's good for everyone to take a look at at least.

Brian (23:44)
Yeah, and I think it's good to we propose this kind of can you get ahead? And so there is kind of the the weird marriage here a little bit of of how leadership plays into this. And, know, there is a view of management or leadership sometimes that is one that is much more authoritarian. And so I've known people who feel like, well, if I'm going to get to that level, then I need to.

Scott (23:48)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Brian (24:09)
be able to demonstrate that a little bit more. And I think there's a misunderstanding there as well. I don't think that's really what's required or is what's helpful in a leadership kind of position. It's kind of that whole paradigm of, do you feel your job as the leader is to push everyone towards the goal? Or do you feel like the...

Scott (24:12)
Mm.

Brian (24:31)
the job is to clear everything out in front of them so that they can easily reach the goal. That's a big difference in management style that I think can be really reflective in whether they're seen as nice or not nice.

Scott (24:37)
Yeah. Yeah, right. It's funny you say that because I was just hearing this from someone else as well. Like, the amount of leaders out there who don't have clarity on their goals and vision. So to your point, now you made it doubly hard for my people to try to aim themselves towards these goals. You know, of essentially self-organized, self-leadership, work on themselves to get there. It's lot easier if we have the vision, the goals in front of us. That's one thing I like, I was talking to my team earlier today about OKRs can be pushed down or rolled out from the top, of course, because they're the ones with the goals and the vision, but boy, it's an enablement for people then to figure out how to do the things they need to do to get there. And without that, we're rid of a struggle. So... whether I'm showing up as a kind of leader. So now what I'm left with, there's not a vision to motivate and guide my people and support them as a servant leader to get there. Now we're just back down to tasks. And I think those tasks can come down to like authoritarian, I just need you to do this, take out, take care of that problem, fix this, put out that fire. And that's one, you gotta make sure they do it and do it right. Cause it's at that level, there's not a lot of space for creativity and freedom. And we're not building anything big or necessarily. And projects can even kind of break down into that. So I'm glad you're bringing that up on the leadership styles. We don't have to always show up and be domineering. I think I want to be the kind of leader that is more about we than I and you. pulling something together and coaching up, but without the vision guidance, that might be an opportunity. Whatever department people are in, you can always have that conversation. Or even for the people themselves, again, you can always work on that. But those leadership styles, I think, fold in really nicely, say, do we have a vision and goal to catalyze people towards? Or am I just left with, you know, compliance, task type, manager, I just got to make sure people doing the right thing and complete things when I told them they need to all that, like the old school way. I think there's still probably a lot of that.

Brian (26:35)
Yeah. Yeah. And don't get me wrong, I completely understand from a leader, from a manager perspective, there are some basic kind of things that I think we have responsibility for. If you have an employee, let's say, that's stealing from the company or something, you're not going to just approach that as, hey, well, I'm not going to push them about stealing. I'm just going to try to clear the obstacles from

Scott (26:58)
Ask them how they feel about the stealing.

Brian (27:00)
Right, right, right. mean, don't anyone listen to this and think that we're saying that there's not that basic responsibility. I think that that is still part of being that leader and being a manager in some way, or form. I used to have a manager and for a while I sold shirts outside of Phantom of the Opera as part of the merchandise career there for that. And my boss there had this philosophy style of just, hey, you do your job. And, we're friends. We're the time in between, we just hang out and have fun. But if you're not doing your job, then we have to have a conversation. And I think that's kind of the basis there is like, don't, don't put me in that position as the manager. It's not, you know, you're not respectful of me when that's the case. and sometimes that, that, that occurs and you know, sometimes people have to be fired and all those other kinds of things. I get that. but that's, I think you can. You know, I remember one specific person that I had to fire at one point that, you know, it was, I felt after the, the event that it was actually the kindest thing I could have done to that person because they needed that, that to happen to them. Believe me, I know it's not good to get fired. I understand that, but this person had enough going on in their life that they needed that kick to do something else because they were not going into a good place. And, I just think that sometimes that's.

Scott (28:03)
you

Brian (28:16)
That's the kindest thing to do.

Scott (28:18)
my goodness, my first boss that pulled me into his office to say my performance wasn't adequate. He was just, and he, promise you, he probably said it just the way I'm saying it to you. I thought I was gonna die. But it was, I really did. just like, my heart's, you my throat and mouth totally dry. But it was the best thing I did, because I went back and like.

Brian (28:27)
Yeah.

Scott (28:37)
Yeah, why the heck am I not getting as much done as everyone else? Because I literally was just like an office clerk typing in stuff and word. There's no real complexity to that. But it was what I would, because then I started paying attention. I never had to get talked to again like that. Thank goodness. But boy, was like you said, kind of thing you could have done. And again, I thought I was going to die. I didn't die. I needed to hear that feedback and then fix it. You mentioned something that also makes you think of what Google's research had found about that you need to know their best teams are ones that include the they know they have dependable team members. So the managers gotta say, look, if there's an issue on someone your team is not delivering when you need them to, then yeah, I need to step and help. That should be to be fixed. Google's saying the team members need that, but they also need meaning and impact, that their work makes a difference. Their work is bigger than it just has. So I think that's that nice combination of, I will step aside and address this assertively until that's not okay. that we got to perform this way. At the same time, I'm casting a vision about how this has impact bigger than just this team and you're part of something bigger than you show up in your code or your test or whatever. So I like that situational leadership that's going across. It's kind of reflected in their research as well. I'm glad you brought up that story. Thank you for management.

Brian (29:46)
Yeah, so I So I think I think it's uh, you know if I were to try to sum that I just I think You know when I'm asked a question, can you be nice or do nice guys finish last? I I don't think so. I mean, I don't think that you're gonna finish last just because you're being nice Depending on how you define nice You know, you can't you you have to be honest you have to be you know, entering those relationships in a healthy way. But that's not being not nice. That's that's just showing up and and giving your best to the job, I think. And if you do that in a respectful way and in a kind way, I think that makes you a nice person. And I don't think that person necessarily is going to finish last for those reasons. At least that's my opinion.

Scott (30:25)
Yeah. Well, I like that. And again, on your chart, I like the fact that main thing is be assertive. You have an opinion. Reminds you of the JavaScript, right? Assert. You're just saying it. Just saying it needs to be said. And some people might edit themselves to say, well, who am I? And I remember reading somewhere about, look, you have value in what you say because you exist. It doesn't have to be that you worked there for five years and you've got

Brian (30:54)
Yeah.

Scott (30:57)
you've written books, technical books, it could be that you're a thinking human being who is smart and knows stuff and has opinions. That's why we share what we share and not to edit ourselves out of that saying I shouldn't assert myself because of X or Y. anyways, a good conversation for the beginning of the year. And I like what you're rounding out that nice guys don't finish last. Maybe there's another word and maybe also there's a balance for these guys and girls as well.

Brian (31:23)
Yeah, I agree. Well, Scott, thanks for coming on. I appreciate you making the time and it's always great to have you on the show.

Scott (31:30)
My pleasure. lot of fun. Thanks, Brian.