Why Is There Not More Incel Violence? The Male Sedation Hypothesis
Based Camp | Simone & Malcolm Collins
Pornography and Its Societal Impact
This chapter delves into the relationship between pornography consumption and sexual violence rates across different countries, revealing surprising correlations. It emphasizes the importance of open discussions about these topics to educate youth while addressing the ethical considerations of modern pornography practices.
Join Malcolm and Simone Collins as they explore the complex relationship between pornography, violence, and male psychology in modern society. This thought-provoking discussion delves into controversial topics such as:
* The "male sedation hypothesis" and its impact on societal violence
* The unexpected benefits of pornography in reducing sexual violence
* The potential dangers of the NoFap movement
* The role of video games and sports in channeling male aggression
* Strategies for healthy sexual development in the digital age
* The importance of creating safe dating environments for young people
* The future of relationships and dating in a technologically advanced world
Drawing from scientific studies, personal experiences, and cultural observations, Malcolm and Simone offer a nuanced perspective on these sensitive issues. Whether you're a parent, educator, or simply interested in understanding the complexities of modern sexuality, this video provides valuable insights and challenges common misconceptions.
Simone Collins: [00:00:00] that
Malcolm Collins: craziness is what provides them with the motivation to go talk to women where they could go to jail because they talked to her in the wrong way, where they could be shut down and socially shamed.
Going up and approaching somebody in a dating context is incredibly difficult and the line between the motivation you need to go up and approach a random woman who you're interested in and the motivation you need to shoot up your school, I think, is a much narrower line than many women in I feel
Simone Collins: honestly like in many ways shooting up a school is way easier.
Yeah, and that's the point.
Malcolm Collins: You need the guys to have this insane motivation
Chris Williamson's male sedation hypothesis proposes that Online virtual worlds, particularly pornography and video games, have a pacifying effect on young men who are struggling to find romantic partners or sexual partners. The key points of this hypothesis are, one, pornography provides a small dose of reproductive fitness cues
do. In the [00:01:00] studies where it showed higher rates of murder and stuff like that tied to single men, these are societies that completely ban porn and masturbation because they're Muslim societies mostly is where you're seeing this.
Simone Collins: One thing I kind of wonder is, is do you get the free radical problem or do you get essentially like risky young men in a society where porn isn't necessarily banned?
But where nofap is pervasive,
would you like to know more?
Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I am excited to be with you here today. Today. We are going to do an episode that asks, why aren't there more mass shootings by themselves?
Simone Collins: I was really wondering this, like, we are recording this fairly close to when President Donald Trump was almost killed, got his ear shot through.
And I'm like, why are more people not doing this? If apparently it's so fricking easy. To go out with an AR and just shoot it as president. Like, why are people not [00:02:00] going out all the time? It's
Malcolm Collins: not just that. I mean, this is something that's been well studied and we've mentioned in previous episodes. If you look at polygynous societies versus monogamous, equivalent monogamous societies.
Right. Typically going to get way more like, like much higher rates of terrorism in the polygynous societies. And the, the, the question is why, why do you get higher rates of terrorism? Why even in monogamous societies get higher rates of terrorism as marriage rates go down which was a thing that was studied in Egypt.
They were looking at like during economic downturns where people couldn't pay the bride price more men would go unmarried and you'd directly get more terrorists. And the answer is an unmarried man. Has, you know, nothing to do with their time. Well, not just nothing to do with their time, but they have no vested interest in the social order as it stands.
So
Simone Collins: in other words, hormonally also, I would argue they're being told, go big or go home. Like you are genetically going to die. You might as well be dead. Biologically speaking,
Malcolm Collins: if they were in a tribe [00:03:00] and under the tribe's current order, there was no chance that they would ever get a partner. Then It made sense.
To risk your life to up in the social order of that tribe.
Simone Collins: Yeah. Or, you know, do something insane that could possibly when you were sexual partner and therefore, you know, biologically survive to the next generation. So your, your genes, your body, everything that you've evolved is screaming at you. As a male go big or go home.
So you're going to do increasingly risky things. So, although, you know, I will maybe push back on that a little bit, right? Because there's some mixed data on this, right? Like I understand that like testosterone is high when you're, when you're in a very like sort of competitive male environment, when you're not.
In a, a stable relationship, but then there's also some research that finds that male testosterone kind of plummets when you're on a losing streak. And there have been some theories.
Malcolm Collins: Testosterone. Yeah. Okay. No, this is not tied to testosterone. It's tied to desperation. [00:04:00] Actually, many of these guys by the biology that we are very low testosterone, which is why they're in testosterone in that moment.
Yeah. This is different than a testosterone driven, go big or go home. Push. Okay. This is a
Simone Collins: An existential. An existential thing.
Malcolm Collins: Like it's, it's worse destroying society because it's not working for me.
Simone Collins: And actually there was
Malcolm Collins: a paper on this just last year. It came out in 2023 and it was titled, why isn't there more incel violence?
Simone Collins: Oh,
Malcolm Collins: okay. And I'm going to put it on the screen here. Asking the good
Simone Collins: questions.
Malcolm Collins: Thanks guys. And Chris Williamson actually is, is, is famous for having a theory on this. Yeah, yeah. The anti incel. Friend of the show. We've yeah, I, you know, we talk to him occasionally. I've been on the show. I'd really love to do it again sometime.
I, I, I find him, he's a fantastic online commenter. Whenever I hear him, I'm always like, yeah, you, you have good takes. A little vanilla for my, my, my perspective. But he's trying to
Simone Collins: speak to the everyman. You can understand.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's very much an everyman guy. So [00:05:00] anyway, this is what perplexity had to say about his, his take.
Chris Williamson's male sedation hypothesis proposes that Online virtual worlds, particularly pornography and video games, have a pacifying effect on young men who are struggling to find romantic partners or sexual partners. The key points of this hypothesis are, one, pornography provides a small dose of reproductive fitness cues, while video games offer status and community cues.
Two, These virtual experiences act as counterfeit fitness cues, meaning men feel as if their sexual needs are being met to some degree. Three, as a result, these online worlds reduce motivation for engaging in real life meeting effort and risky behavior associated with the quote unquote young male syndrome.
Four, this sedation effect may explain why there isn't more violence or disruption from an increasing number of men who are not having sex. Five, the hypothesis suggests that modern society [00:06:00] is essentially short circuiting men's natural drives, reducing their motivation to seek goals, and accomplish things in the real world.
Wilson argues that this phenomenon of Williamson argues that this phenomenon could be contributing to the decline in dating efforts among young men, as well as potentially explaining lower levels of sexual and non sexual violence than otherwise might be expected. Huh.
Simone Collins: I guess I could see that. I'm so
Malcolm Collins: impressed with AI these days that it can take his theory and I feel like really effectively boil it down and then give me a good summary. And I'm like, Oh yeah, that's, that's a good point. That's a good way to look at it.
Simone Collins: Yeah, but
Malcolm Collins: I didn't get
Simone Collins: anything.
Malcolm Collins: Do I think it, what misses anything?
No, not from what I've heard. No, this is, this is fairly accurate. It's that young men in a historic perspective, they want, had a desire to mate, but they also had a desire to hunt in war [00:07:00] and go on the kill and everything. And this desire has been masturbated by masturbating. I mean, using something that's not the thing that's supposed to fulfill that emotion.
To fulfill that emotion in various ways, historically probably the most common is sports, right? Like sports very clearly is meant to masturbate young men's desire for war. You know, somebody who was on Chris Williams show, what they were talking was like, yeah, I played paintball for the first time when I was younger.
And then I was like, Oh. This is like weirdly fun. Like, even though I don't contextualize, and I was the same way growing up. I didn't contextualize myself as a particularly masculine man. Yeah. Why, why do I enjoy going with a group of friends and hunting other people to shoot? You know, why is this like, just feel so natural.
And I think it's because it is natural. It's the way that we're programmed. And I think that. Probably you're going to be mentally healthier as a young person. And this is why I would encourage my kids to do this [00:08:00] with more physical versions of this. So for example, while I think video games are useful in mastermating the sensing to some extent, I would strongly recommend my kids join a local paintball.
Club or something like that because I think that the pain associated with that and the actual physical
Simone Collins: exertion totally
Malcolm Collins: does more to fully fulfill these pathways and ensure that their brain doesn't think that they're, well, I don't know, some sort of a eunuch you know, growing up in Babylon and that's when I say growing up in Babylon, people may not know.
So One of the King Xerxes the, the, the first one, I want to say Xerxes, who conquered and formed the Persian empire. You know, he has a quote where he says something along the lines of, because people are like, why aren't you moving our capital outside of the like barren mountains? Right. Like this is a horrible area.
We've conquered all these, these wealthy cities. And he goes, the moment we move to the wealthy cities and we raise our children in the wealthy cities they will become weak, like strong areas, breed [00:09:00] strong children, weak areas breed weak children. And would you know, it was in a generation of moving the capital of Babylon, like the most city of cities, I think the two generations actually they ended up collapsing as an empire.
And that's because I think he was fundamentally right. You know, if you, fulfill these with lower order things, you will get lower order outcomes. Now with sexuality itself, do I believe sexuality is actually fully being sublimated by pornography?
Simone Collins: Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: Yes, I do. In the studies where it showed higher rates of murder and stuff like that tied to single men, these are societies that completely ban porn and masturbation because they're Muslim societies mostly is where you're seeing this.
And so, yeah, it would make sense that in those societies, the system would end up getting fully activated and you would get the murder, murder. Whereas
Simone Collins: here you can sedate. Oh, but yeah, all the more reason to not ban porn. Come [00:10:00] on, people.
Malcolm Collins: Well, actually we'll, we'll do an episode. Hold on. I'll, I'll pull up the statistic right here so this is actually from a book, The Pragmatist's Guide to Sexuality. Across nations, more permissive attitudes to pornography are correlated with lower rates of grape, and less sexual violence against women. A great case study of this can be seen with the Czech Republic, where porn was illegal under communism, then legalized when the party fell.
This decriminalization of pornography caused, in one year, Grapes to decline over 37%. Oh my gosh. human lives that are affected by this? Yeah. And child sexual abuse by about 50%. How many children are you consigning to grape?
STop coming for our porn.
Come here, kid! I'm gonna tie you to the radiator and grape you! These kids were obviously horrified. Not that girl. Look, she's totally asking for it. What? Look at her. She's begging to get graped. [00:11:00] Will you listen to yourself? Look what she's wearing.
Look what she's wearing! It's purple!
Malcolm Collins: By, it is, it's so dumb the people who watch this.
Similar results were seen when porn laws were loosened in Denmark, Japan, China, and Hong Kong. Wow. Other studies reinforce these results, such as one in aggression and behavior. This study was titled the pleasure is momentary, the expense damnable, the influence of pornography on grape and sexual assault.
That found a inverse correlation between porn consumption and violent behavior towards women specifically grape and sexual assaults. The study findings suggest the more porn a man consumes, The less likely he is to commit these violent acts against women. And you, you find this across the board.
We're going to do another episode where we just go over this. But like another great one is for every 10 percent increase in internet access in the U. S., there is a corresponding regional decrease of 7. 3 percent in grapes.
[00:12:00] Speed of light Trekkie! What are you doing? That's gross! Trekkie
Malcolm Collins: So basically all of the evidence, and I don't think he even knew this evidence that I just went over, suggests that, He is right.
And these things are intrinsically connected. The reason why we haven't had an incel uprising is pornography, online pornography.
Simone Collins: Thank goodness. And fidget games and paintball.
Malcolm Collins: But the question becomes, what's the correct amount to engage with these things, Simone? Yeah, right. Yeah, clearly we don't want our kids completely neutered by these, you know, fake masturbatory sources of pleasure.
But we also want them to be able to utilize them judiciously so that they aren't just distracted by these evolutionary drives that just are irrelevant in a modern context, or don't drive, you know, perfect [00:13:00] value aligned. Something about Mary, you know, you got to masturbate before you go on a date or you'll be too horny to think straight.
Line,
Oh, look. The most honest moment. In a man's life are the few minutes after he's blown his load.
And the reason for it is that you're no longer trying to get laid. You're actually, you're thinking like a girl. And girls love that.
Malcolm Collins: What is the right way to engage with this stuff, given that it does short circuit the male brain so effectively?
Simone Collins: Yeah, my intuition is that we need to go back. And you know, this is couched in me not being a like, trad wife fan, right? I'm not like, let's go back to the 50s because it was so perfect thing.
But That seems to be the right level. And let me explain why there was porn. Absolutely. There was porn, but you had to go buy it in a magazine. Like it wasn't unlimited. So it was like, it was in, in, in inherently what's the word for like when you're controlling doses, [00:14:00] but these were small controlled doses.
Like you couldn't. Overdose, basically, based on the supply that was readily available to you. Like, you could go to the of people, by the way,
Malcolm Collins: if you're talking Well, I actually disagree with this. Oh, really? Well, I think the porn of the 50s So, I have a He actually pretty strange moral relationship with pornography.
No,
Simone Collins: no, no. No, I'm not saying we go back to that style. It could all be hentai. It could all be whatever. Okay. Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: I know. I, I think that the porn industry that features real humans is fundamentally unethical and shouldn't exist.
Simone Collins: No, I'm, I'm all for hentai, but like, I think what you, if, if we went back to where you could like, You had to buy like small packets.
Malcolm Collins: Not just Hentai. I think you've got to have AI porn. You can have digital art porn. You can have, you can have any porn that doesn't use real people. But I also think that the Bible talks about this as well. So the Bible says that you should not lust over other women when you're married. You should, you should.
You know, to, to look at another woman and lost over [00:15:00] her is the same as creating adultery. And I think that that's what it's pointing towards is that pornography should not include real women because of the downstream negative effects of that industry.
Simone Collins: Thank goodness for hentai then.
Malcolm Collins: Okay, but here's the question.
What about something like OnlyFans? A lot of people use that to pay, you know, for their, you know, Families and kids and it's do you think that that should be legal?
Simone Collins: Wait,
Malcolm Collins: what? Only fans. Should only fans be legal?
Simone Collins: See, I'm, I'm still like in favor of, you know, let people earn money doing what they want to do.
Malcolm Collins: I don't think it works in a modern context. People will use VPNs. People will use all the countries. I know that actually have pornography bans. It just, everyone gets around it. No, you're
Simone Collins: right. Yeah. And I'm saying like you were saying in an ideal world, like I, I, I'm saying, [00:16:00] I'm
Malcolm Collins: saying for our kids, how would you relate to this?
How do you teach them to engage with these things to achieve optimal outcomes?
Simone Collins: Well, so I think one of the key things is for us to be very open with it to the point where we make it not cool, not so we're not making it shameful because that's very damaging. We found that like, you know, for example, masturbation only really seems to be damaging if you like, turn it into an addiction or if you're very ashamed of it, and then you like, feel really bad about it and it causes all these negative side effects.
So I don't want to shame porn for our kids, but I do want to make it thoroughly uncool. And if we're like, Hey, would you like some porn? Like, let's talk about this. And like, you know, My mom was actually
Malcolm Collins: like that when I was a kid. She's like, Hey, you're at that age. Do you want me to get some porn for you?
I know you can't buy it yourself. And be like, so what are you
Simone Collins: into? You know, just like to really, really make them uncomfortable. And so they, they, they're, they're aware of it. And like, but we also make it uncool. Cause I don't want them to be like, Ah, look at me. I'm so great [00:17:00] for having discovered this.
I
Malcolm Collins: actually think that that's key. And that's why I never, I'm also going to be like,
Simone Collins: you know, boys, you got to wash your sheets and you got to use the separate washing machine. Cause I am not
Malcolm Collins: dealing with that. It was the same as me was my parents and drugs is, is my mom had a role that was like, well, you can have drugs, but you have to ask me to buy it.
So like, you want marijuana? I'll get it for you, but you know, give me marijuana. Okay, here, you can have marijuana, but I have to be the one to buy it. And it just made it so uncool. When other kids would come and they would like brag about like, smoking dope with their friends and stuff like that. I was just like, you mean that thing that moms give you thank them moms giving you what?
Why do you think that this makes you cool? Like it was very easy for me to see through the social temptation. Mm-Hmm. When I had first engaged it as that thing you have to ask your mom for. Yeah. And it was the same with pornography. Right. It was very not cool. Like to me at that age, cause I was like and I [00:18:00] think that that really helped me intellectualize it at a very young age, I think the bands on it, cause it to become this alluring thing to people where for me, my actual obsession with fetishes and stuff like that comes more from how intellectually strange it is to me.
Yeah. Like Why are humans doing these things when I don't understand the evolutionary pressures that would have led them to do these things, or it doesn't make sense with my understanding of human evolution. Well, I think
Simone Collins: probably what got you first excited about them was you realized that you could play arbitrage games if you pandered to other people's fetishes.
Malcolm Collins: No, and I use that a lot , with the girls that I was dating in the early days. You know, when you, when you go to a girl and you're like, yeah, I've got a I, well, then the thing was, is back when I was dating in, in the early days, and this is something guys don't do. And somehow they don't notice that girls do this.
Girls walk [00:19:00] around when they are if you're, if you're dating and you're in that younger phase of your life, like. teens. The girls of that age range walk around with their porn constantly. You just might not recognize it as porn because it is their romance novels and their dystopian books and their vampire books and their fairy books.
But girls of that age range So like the ultimate
Simone Collins: place to learn a girl's fetishes is to go to her Goodreads profile? So like the ultimate place to learn a girl's fetishes is to go to her Goodreads profile?
Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they like, and I think guys don't recognize this because they see porn is in fetishes is like something shameful that they don't talk about in public when it's like often a big part of like late teen girls identity.
Totally. And guys miss it because they don't know to look there. They don't know.
Simone Collins: Well, because again, and this is demonstrated through dick pics, guys think that women relate to sex the same way they do. So they're like, well, what would I love to receive? Yeah. Oh, [00:20:00] like a picture of her genitals. Also her picture of mine.
Aren't I being nice? As you say in the book on sexuality, it's the ultimate feminist move. Yes.
Malcolm Collins: But you know, you see a girl back in my gen, you know, days, the most common was like vampires or werewolves walking around with vampire books, you know, to come to her was your story of, well, you know, I've just always had this shameful.
Did fetish around vampire stuff, and I don't feel I can talk about it publicly, but you've seen all of her books. You know what she thinks of this, and then all of a sudden she's like, oh, really? Well, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Malcolm. But that's just the way it's, it's actually remarkable to me. And I think that this is the, the core challenge of all this is that guys just aren't beginning to engage with girls anymore because all of these alternative sources they provide an excuse for a guy. It's like, well, I don't want to be me too.
I don't want to be X. I don't want to be Y,
Simone Collins: [00:21:00] you
Malcolm Collins: know? So I'm just not gonna go out there. And it's so dangerous to go out there. And. Chris Williamson also had a fun idea about how to fix it, which is like the next company I want to do. It is to create an AI that is trained on women to flirt and turn down guys so that guys can practice knowing when they're being flirted with and knowing like the way to ask out a girl in a safe way before doing it was the real thing.
Wouldn't that be great to have for our young boys?
Simone Collins: Oh, yeah. No, we need to make this at least just for our kids. Yeah,
Malcolm Collins: I'm definitely building it. If somebody else doesn't build this, I'm 100 percent building
Seven to do it. I've gotten pretty good at programming chatbots, and they're very high quality at this stage. So I can do this for free, which is something I didn't realize when I first recorded this. , build, , a pretty high quality model of this with the existing NSFW. Chat-bots. And [00:22:00] I'll be doing it.
Malcolm Collins: This. I think it would be a lot of like a real utility as a product so that my kids don't end up Because this is the problem when dating as a young man.
If you mess up, right, you can cross implied consent lines, which make a simple mistake great. And if you're sleeping around a ton like I did, you know, I slept with like well over a hundred people before I settled down. It, it, I only need to mess up with one of those people. And now I'm a grapist.
If I misjudged implied consent, just 1% of the time in this current world. I would still be accused of being a greatest. That is wild. It's also important to consider because this is something, you know, We've been doing talk about it much and they over. I think dismiss what the red pill community has found in says, which is [00:23:00] it, women really don't find it hot to actively give consent.
They. Kind of like the guy to take charge of the situation and to show that he can actively judge whether or not they are consenting to moving forwards. And that is. You know, you remove a lot of, especially for younger people when they're way hornier and way more driven by what is arousing to them. Uh, you are making it so that the men who follow these rules, that girls are setting. Are going to do much worse with girls. And have girlfriends or partners who are much less infatuated with them.
Malcolm Collins: Like it's hard to read. Like, and this is the other thing that like the modern. world doesn't take into consent consideration because they just haven't, I guess, slept around a lot. But like anyone who has knows you cannot reliably determine consent. That's not being actively given to you. If somebody is not [00:24:00] actively and verbally declining consent and somebody can be like, well, you know, the, you, you just ask, yeah, that's a mood killer.
That's not something that people who are actually like,
Simone Collins: that's. Even that feels like a completely moot point now, because even if you killed the mood and did that, they could retroactively decide to revoke consent. Yeah. So what's the point? Like, I'm not going to bother asking for consent if it could just be revoked later on.
If like, suddenly I become less cool and they decide that they now regret having slept with me, even though the, you know, for the first, Eight weeks. It was fine. So it just, yeah, like you can't win. But that is, that is interesting. It, it makes me concerned. One thing I kind of wonder is, is do you get the free radical problem or do you get essentially like risky young men in a society where porn isn't necessarily banned?
But where nofap is pervasive, like, in other words, is a [00:25:00] nofap man who consensually has limited his access. Is he going to make himself into a radical and unhappy? Yeah,
Malcolm Collins: I think he is much more likely to become radicalized from the data that we have access to.
Simone Collins: Oh, see, that's, that's scary because I feel like that's where the sentiment is going.
I think that that Gen Z and Gen Alpha Are going to be more religiously and socially conservative, whether or not it codes that way. Like, you know, they're going to be all very like LGBTQ plus whatever, but they're also going to be like sex, negative, porn, negative, masturbation, negative, and then you're going to get this theoretically, then that's not good.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah, that's actually something that we should be worried about, socially speaking.
Simone Collins: Oh, add it to the list. Add it to the list.
Malcolm Collins: Add it to the list. No, well, and, and, and you don't want the left to learn about this. They learn that this stuff causes radicalization because these guys aren't having their needs met and so they're sort of going into genetic, uh, boobicide mode.
That is [00:26:00] really dangerous socially. Right. Because
Simone Collins: that you think the left would want to accelerate the revolution that brings an end to late stage capitalism.
Malcolm Collins: We see things like no FAP as a sign of they'd see it as dangerous and they try to kill the movement.
Simone Collins: Wouldn't it be good if the no FAP movement was killed?
Isn't, isn't the movement that we want? Yes. FAP. Yes.
Malcolm Collins: Well, we've got to do another episode. That'll go live before this one that requires more context. So I'm gonna go over all the science of masturbation research. Because I think that that's really needed for the context on this question, which is to say that nofap is genuinely probably a deleterious movement for our society.
You
Simone Collins: already pointed out that it is because basically if men are not sedating themselves, they are going to make themselves more dangerous to society. Well, yeah, look at it this way. Look at it this way. Okay. If you, if you have schizophrenia, you could be a danger to yourself and others. You need to take medication.
If you have severe anxiety, you could be [00:27:00] a danger to yourself and others. You should probably take medications. You can function like if you're not getting sex, that
Malcolm Collins: craziness is what provides them with the motivation to go talk to women where they could go to jail because they talked to her in the wrong way, where they could be shut down and socially shamed.
Going up and approaching somebody in a dating context is incredibly difficult and the line between the motivation you need to go up and approach a random woman who you're interested in and the motivation you need to shoot up your school, I think, is a much narrower line than many women in I feel
Simone Collins: honestly like in many ways shooting up a school is way easier.
Yeah, and that's the point.
Malcolm Collins: You need the guys to have this insane motivation.
Simone Collins: If
Malcolm Collins: you, if you, if you, Well, here's the way I would change this.
The way I would teach our kids to relate to this is I think, you know, and [00:28:00] I've mentioned this before in other episodes. I think that ultimately we need to remove a human arousal from humans. I think it's the first emotion that just absolutely must be deleted. It provides no utility. It was meant for monkeys that couldn't figure out the utility of children.
And so they needed to feel some positive thing to figure out the X goes in the Y and that makes babies and babies are good for me. We should have a world where people aren't making children for the sake of the children. The reason they're excited to get a wife and have a family is for the family, not for the sex.
I think people who. Marry for sex. Like that is a fundamentally twisted reason to marry. And it will lead to really bad relationships. And I think that this is one of the core problems you have in evangelical communities is people are essentially getting pressured to marry so that they are allowed to have sex and they aren't even allowed to masturbate.
[00:29:00] Like, of course they're making rash decisions. So instead, I would say that I really don't care if my kids satiate their arousal pathways with any sort of whatever material they want. I think that they should instead refocus their drives in life around building families because the happiness they will get from the family is higher than any amount of happiness you can get from any amount of sex that you're getting.
Even if your sleeping was like, you know, there were times in my life where, you know, I'd have threesomes and I'd have multiple partners and I had sleep with famous people. And I, you know, the amount of happiness that any of that gave me. Is absolutely miniscule when contrasted with the amount of happiness I get from my kids and my wife and my family.
And so I think that [00:30:00] yeah, it's pointless. It's pointless. Like, like if
Simone Collins: they can, well, the nature of the pleasure is so different. Like the, the pleasure I've gotten from sex has been no different from the pleasure I've gotten from like, A really good meal or from like fentanyl, like they're all, they're all the same.
They're, they're a physical pleasure and they're real. Like, I'm not going to say like, sex feels good. Fentanyl feels good. And food feels good. Like, you know, if they're good. But. There's nothing they don't, they're completely, it's like a different game entirely compared to what it's like to be married to you, Malcolm, quite frankly, which is just like all my dreams coming true and then some or are watching our kids grow and seeing this sparkle in their eye that they inherited from you.
It is. Marvelous. But it is also very different. So in a world in which someone lives a nihilistic and purely hedonistic life, I guess, you know, if they're just comparing sex to food to fentanyl, then like, but I
Malcolm Collins: think if you [00:31:00] can make the point of dating the family, the family that they are going to get from that relationship, I think that's the key.
Simone Collins: Well, and that's, I mean, like part of my, my pushback to you saying you have to have men who are brave enough to just cold approach a woman. I don't think you do because I don't think that approach ever will scale or really work, honestly, like we've, we've reached a point in society where like cold approaching women in, in the kind of way that men are expected to now is not going to work for 80 percent of men.
It's going to work for 20 percent and right now it is only working for 20 percent and how dare you imply that it should work. You're in the top 0. 001%. So f**k you. You're not allowed to talk. Okay. Okay. It's really hard for people out there. And I think the only way that we can fix this is by bringing back dating markets.
And I actually don't think that's a farfetched thing to do one, because the alternative is already so broken, but two, because both men and women. From their teens through their thirties and even forties [00:32:00] have expressed to us again and again, how awesome they would love, they would love this. It's an awesome idea.
Where can I sign up? Like put me on the list, put my kids on the list. People want these. And, and people are actively trying to go out and find and hire matchmakers. And use matchmaking services. They just aren't very, they're not designed well because there's not enough of a cohesive culture. And to your point, yes, it is about dating a family.
The whole family has to have buy in and you have to have cultural buy in and cultural match as well. But I do think that you can build solutions around that. And I do think that there are ways to address this. I think Keeper AI may be making some progress there and some other people I'm sure will come up with some interesting things.
So yeah, to your point, like I, I think. I think yes, FAP has to be a thing. And I think it's, it's a bandaid to a known problem. And yes, you, but I think, you know, you, you, you need, you need, yes, FAP. You also need like Boy Scouts and paintball [00:33:00] and like allowing men to be men. And allowing men to date and like get out there and making it a cultural norm.
And you know, when you have that, and when you make people comfortable doing it and create venues and activities where it's allowed to happen, it's great. Bring the, bring the girls paintballing. Then you can act heroic in front of them. Then you can bond over. The trauma of being hit, you know, like whatever
Malcolm Collins: you can protect them.
Oh, wait, girls, you want, you want to find a guy in your young do something like bowling. I really, that sounds high status in among males. Like talk about playing the arbitrage game.
Simone Collins: Wow. Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: That's like being a guy cheerleader.
I heard a great tactic. Along this line from one of the girls on our discord server today. Uh, who's now married this work to find her husband where she said, what she would do is she would challenge guys to a fight when they were dieting. And I was like, that is such a great way as a girl to be incredibly, what is [00:34:00] functionally sexually aggressive without a guy coding it. We're also being like tough.
There
will also being tough. Oh, sorry. I didn't. I'm coding right. And doing the
all right, this is. And here she's there for food. Stare at diapers are there. I love you. Love you too.
Be safe when you drive. Okay.
But yes, to two. One and people can be like, well, Why would this be sexually aggressive because what's realistically going to happen in this fight. I can tell you as a guy who's not completely idiotic, what most guys are going to do. Is, they are going to either posts out in which case she knows pussy, not a cultural fit, likely. Or be interested in actually fighting her. If they are interested in actually fighting her almost no guy is going to throw the first blow.
What they're going to do is they're going to wait for her to make a move, to see how serious she is about this. Um, if she does a medium hit, she doesn't want to be too hard because you don't want him to actually, you want him to know that even she was holding back a bit, um, [00:35:00] But if she does that, What is the guy going to do? Uh, even if she went fully hard, where the guy is likely going to do is what I would do, which is grab her wrists and hold her in place because it's very easy to overpower.
Most girls, even girls who exercise, if you're a guy who exercises to any extent, um, or. If I don't think I can just hold her arms in place to grapple her, both of those lead to very sexualized scenarios, which are very easy to transition for the girl into something else and very easy to tell, but the guy is actually interested in her because the guy you think going to do something like that, or allow the situation to escalate like that, if he isn't interested in potentially getting physical with you, because he knows what's going to happen in the fight, just as well as you know, what's going to happen in the fight. Then it can also signal cultural alignment to the guy, which can be really useful because it's
quite a rough and tumble thing to do for anyone who's from one of the claim cultures.
Simone Collins: Are we going to have a girl's paintball? I haven't seen a paintball place around here.
Oh, we'll find one. And I don't know if they're like, [00:36:00] you know, we're going to have to see if there are hot teens hanging out at the gun range.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. They used to be, you go to the mall to meet random people, but now we'll have our online circles. Yeah. I, I was going to say like I, should note here on the, the sexuality stuff, I'm gonna read a few more because it looks like this might go live before I went on masturbation. Yeah. Here's another quote.
Masturbation may contribute to a decline in many social ills. UCLA researchers found that sex criminals on average consume less porn than the average person and started consuming it at a later age than the average non sex criminal.
Simone Collins: Had
Malcolm Collins: today's sex criminals been able to exploit their sexuality through their imagination earlier, perhaps they would not have felt compelled to commit sex crimes.
And here I'd also point out Oh yes, people who consume more pornography actually have better views of women than people who don't consume porn. Yeah, they
Simone Collins: were more feminist, right? Yes. Yeah.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And, and for people who are like, no, what what, what about like Wasn't there, there was also
Simone Collins: one that, that women who consume porn, because the thought is that like, it also makes [00:37:00] women feel terrible about themselves, but instead women who consume porn were more sexually confident.
Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah, yeah, that's definitely a study. Here's, here's another quote. So we did recall a study being conducted by the Max Planck Institute showing that the in that intense porn consumption in men was associated with lower gray matter volume in the brain. So we went back to the only study to realize that what it actually found was that men who consumed lots of porn had lower amounts of gray matter in a specific part of the brain, the right striatum.
This is the part of the brain involved with reward processing. All it says is that men who have deficient reward processing pathways consume more porn. Okay. Yeah. They probably also like consume processing, processed goods and more like correlation than causation. Yeah. And wouldn't you know it, that is what the authors of the study have also said in interviews.
Oh, it's actually wild to me how just like AstroTurf, you know, crap is it's a, it, it, it, it, it is, it's like a,
Simone Collins: it's like [00:38:00] a, any of these cold Turkey things. I just get pissed, you know?
Malcolm Collins: And that's another thing. If you do struggle with porn consumption, just take naltrexone, bro. Yeah, dude. You're like alcohol works for porn. It, it, it, it significantly.
So people might think I drink a lot, but that's because they haven't seen Malcolm pre naltrexone. I drink in a controlled fashion these days. And back then I drank in an old uncontrolled fashion. Yeah, but I, I also have to note for people who are like, you never got drunk
Simone Collins: though. You were just, you were just like a, an old English man.
I can like 1600s English man. I remember
Malcolm Collins: when you made the rule for me that I wasn't allowed to start drinking. Cause you know, you, you were like, it's becoming a problem. And she said I couldn't start before 8am. And that was, keep in mind that Malcolm wakes up at 2am.
Simone Collins: I mean, that's, that's dude, that's.
You know, if most people started drinking eight hours into the day.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah. [00:39:00] Now, now I never really start drinking before, you know, five or so. So
Simone Collins: it's like, basically you don't start drinking until like 10 PM, a normal person's time, because again, you wake up at 2 AM. I just want to make it clear, like how reasonable you're being because
Malcolm Collins: you
Simone Collins: wake up so freaking early.
Okay.
Malcolm Collins: Well we'll get into this in our porn episode, but it's something that should be known for those who are like, well, That sounds wrong taken out of context. My religion helps me not conceal as much porn across the board. The more restrictions your religion has on pornography, the more you will consume pornography.
This is like a well studied, inter regional across religions. You find this in evangelical Protestants, you find this at Catholics. One of my favorite anecdotes around this is once, A Girls Gone Wild ad actually, accidentally aired was the daily it was like the 2 a. m. Good Friday mass. Oh no. And it was the highest sales they'd ever had.
No! [00:40:00]
Simone Collins: Oh no! But it gets even with Catholicism, you can just apologize. So, I feel like they were asking for it, you know.
Malcolm Collins: You know, which state has the highest porn consumption in the United States?
Simone Collins: It's gotta be in the Bible belt. Where? Utah. Oh, Mormon. Thank you.
Malcolm Collins: Either.
Simone Collins: Love you. I'll be too coming down and
Malcolm Collins: recording. Anyway, I love you to decimum. I love you too. I'm going to cut your hair now.
Okay. All right. Come on down.
Simone Collins: Okay.
Malcolm Collins: And you are perfect.
Simone Collins: Good timing. She just finished this. So here I come back. I
Malcolm Collins: love that you became such a good barber over COVID COVID. I think for so many people, it was like, Oh, you don't need to go out to get your haircut.
Simone Collins: I will. And it's like 60 a haircut or more.
Yeah. It's insane. I we save so much money. Everyone else did sourdough and hair. No one, no one is still doing [00:41:00] sourdough, but I think a lot of people are still doing haircuts and you can tell by the hairstyles have changed and you can see the stores like there's, there's there are fewer male haircuts that are like clearly from a salon.
And like the typical hairstyle is one that you can do with one of the things and some scissors. So
Malcolm Collins: I hope even after I become president, you're still cutting my hair.
Simone Collins: That would be so cute on the white house lawn.
Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I would love to take out to our field so we don't have to like mop up afterwards.
Simone Collins: I know, but like the white house is perfect for that.
There's plenty of lawn for me to go out and cut your hair. So
Malcolm Collins: yeah. Oh, by the way what was I going to do? Yeah, one person did say you being on the left made him irrationally angry.
Simone Collins: It bothers people. We have to keep everyone in their correct place, Malcolm.
Malcolm Collins: Are women always supposed to be the left hand of a man or the right hand of a man?
Simone Collins: They're [00:42:00] supposed to be to the left so that the man can shield them from the The backsplash of cars splashing on the road.
You're, you're my human shield.
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