I think that's a really good way to think of it too. So sounds like we're aligned on it's not a special magical unicorn who does this. It's just a really

good product in

nature. So my next question is kind of out. We were talking about this a little bit with what types of companies can do product-led growth. And you said pretty much all of them. In your book, you talk a little bit about how product-led growth might differ from red ocean strategies and blue ocean strategies too. Can you tell us a little bit about what that means and what kind of advice you have for companies that are doing one of those?

Totally. Yeah. So in a blue ocean, there's a lot of education that you have to do. As far as like, hey, you're just this new approach. The main kind of reason why is people are just not sure where they don't know necessarily what is the new problem to be solved? Or they're like, oh, I haven't really thought about that. So they're not a problem where they got to understand a lot about the space to understand like, oh, yeah, here's why this is a super big issue. Unless you're already in that kind of space, you don't really necessarily know about it. It's kind of like product-led growth. Maybe like three or four years ago. It was like, what is this thing? And then now we start seeing there's all these tools for like how to qualify your product users and all this stuff. It's like, OK, yeah, they were like three years early. Now people starting to get it. And it's different. And so if you're super early in that kind of market, what's really important is like you focus on educating people. And a salesperson can do a fantastic job of that. They're providing back to that question. Are they providing value or friction? In a blue ocean, a salesperson is more like consultative sales. They're providing a ton of value. Helping you understand what are the problems, how what you're doing might not be the best approach and get you on the same page. And so in a blue ocean, it's awesome to really help them educate them. And now in a red ocean, the biggest difference is like it's usually becoming a commodity very quickly. And in the software space, it's like everything can be developed very cheaply, very quickly all over the world. And so it's like as soon as you have a good market or something, you expect there to be hundreds of monkeys competing for that same space. And so if you're in a red ocean and you don't have a product and model, it's kind of silly. Because you want to have the most efficient go-to-market motion possible. Because you're going to be competing for the lowest cost per position cost. You're going to be competing for how to run more efficiently as a business. And if you're not monitoring that, it's going to be very hard to grow a sustainable business. So that's kind of like the warning if you're in a blue ocean. But the thing there is it's not so much like, should you be product led?

It's when.