Measuring the wrong things

What does it take to build truly product-driven engineering teams? In this episode, Matt Watson — founder and CEO of Full Scale and author of Product Driven — joins Lily and Randy to challenge the longstanding silos between product and engineering. Drawing on 25+ years of experience and four tech ventures, Matt makes the case for why developers need more than just code to care about: they need context, ownership, and clarity.

From redefining “done” to the evolving role of AI in software teams, this conversation dives into how product leaders can foster a culture where engineers aren't just implementers, but co-creators of customer value.

Chapters
0:00 – Why “no feedback” is a warning sign, not success
1:46 – Matt’s journey: from developer to founder
2:58 – Thinking outside the code: how the book Product Driven started
4:50 – Why many engineers don’t think about the customer
5:57 – The rise of product managers and the walling off of engineers
6:56 – Redefining the role of PMs in cross-functional teams
9:01 – Metrics, measurement, and the illusion of progress
10:57 – Ownership as the root of productivity
13:04 – Code monkeys, culture, and killing creativity
14:55 – Communicating context: five minutes that save weeks
17:04 – AI and the changing definition of developer productivity
20:32 – External value vs internal tech debt
22:48 – The Product Driven model: Vision, Focus, Clarity, Shared Ownership, Courage
27:08 – Why courage is the starting point for change

Our Hosts
Lily Smith enjoys working as a consultant product manager with early-stage and growing startups and as a mentor to other product managers. She’s currently Chief Product Officer at BBC Maestro, and has spent 13 years in the tech industry working with startups in the SaaS and mobile space. She’s worked on a diverse range of products – leading the product teams through discovery, prototyping, testing and delivery. Lily also founded ProductTank Bristol and runs ProductCamp in Bristol and Bath.

Randy Silver is a Leadership & Product Coach and Consultant. He gets teams unstuck, helping you to supercharge your results. Randy's held interim CPO and Leadership roles at scale-ups and SMEs, advised start-ups, and been Head of Product at HSBC and Sainsbury’s. He participated in Silicon Valley Product Group’s Coaching the Coaches forum, and speaks frequently at conferences and events. You can join one of communities he runs for CPOs (CPO Circles), Product Managers (Product In the {A}ether) and Product Coaches. He’s the author of What Do We Do Now? A Product Manager’s Guide to Strategy in the Time of COVID-19. A recovering music journalist and editor, Randy also launched Amazon’s music stores in the US & UK.