I think so. I think so too. Making a hundred and eighty shows a year is so much working. It requires so much mental and creative energy because you want to make every show different and you want to do something. It's a different live audience every week and you every day, every episode and you want them to, and for most of those people, it's a one time they're going to see you and experience that. And so imagine you want them to feel like there was some connection there every time. How does that, right? The process of just creating all those episodes and all doing all that work and all that collaboration, how did that inform the way you thought about this record because it's different from your previous records. It sounds different and you wanted it to sound different. I have to imagine. Well, what's funny is I think, so I cover

songs every day on the show, right? And I do all different kind of genres and people are like, Oh, what was the music you were listening to when making this album? And other than listening to just the Kelliokies right before I sing them, literally, which goes well sometimes and doesn't others. It's, it, it, it wasn't listening to anything. I was just listening to my feelings and selfishly like I there wasn't any records. Like I think you can honestly hear influences of mine, like from Green Day with like the course of mine, very straight tone, very gang vocal thing. From Mariah to Florence to I think there are influences in there that Annie Linux with like magic, that little, there's this whole part that reminds me of her bare record. But, but anyway, I think that there's influences in there, but that was just all in the memory banks of like me growing up and loving music and listening. I wasn't listening to anything. I literally like I'm able to compartmentalize so well. So like when I go to my show, I'm not thinking about my music, like music Kelli Clarkson at all.

Do you, how important do you think? Um, adversity is in, in writing, I mean, this, this record, you, you wrote this record at a really challenging time in your life, but at the same time, it, it kind of poured out of you, right? I mean, um, and I wonder whether, I mean, it's sort of strange to, to, because it's obviously you don't want nobody wants to go through that, but at the same time. Um, no tragedy sparks inspiration. Sometimes often it does. And it's interesting because I, I've

always kind of thought that even with like artists I've loved growing up. I mean, Jagged Little Pill, I inspired by a tragedy, but

touched by God, that record, right? The greatest records ever made. So it's

like, so I think that that's true. Like, um, out of darkness comes light, right? So, but I also think like it was very important for me for this record to depict all the different ways that chemistry can affect you. So like even with like favorite kind of high, that's not a dark song. That's like a song about the high of what lust, love, whatever you want to call the beginning of a relationship, right? Like all those things that you feel and the possibility and the opportunity. And, and there's just, it's an open, you know, they're blank pages, right? So it's like exciting. So there's that on there that has nothing to do with tragedy. Um, and I think it was important for me to do that too, because I wanted to point out on this record. It's not all bad. You know, like maybe it ended badly, but like it wasn't all bad. So I think it was very important for me. That's why I say the arc of a relationship or the rollercoaster of it. Um, I do think for the most part, um, that's artists, like even like I bet when you look at artists that are painters or sculptors, I bet their best work. Was sometimes in tragic moments or chaotic moments in their life of figuring things out, because that's what we do. That's you getting it out. It's you, that's your vessel, right? And people relate to that vessel because life isn't easy. Like life can, can be easy at times. But for the most part, you're busting your ass to like get things done or, or have positive change. Like it's, you know, it's, it's work. So, um, so I do think that's true though. I think that, you know, a lot of times records that are the more real and raw and vulnerable you are, the better the, I mean, those are in my career too, are the ones like because of you, like, you know, piece by piece. Those are the songs that really resonate too with fans. So like, yeah, I mean, I think it's connecting. It's us all connecting so you don't feel alone.

I wonder, is it for you, is there a difference when you are singing words that you wrote? I mean, this whole record you wrote every song versus a song. Not high road. Most every song you wrote. And so is there a difference in how you sing that? No.

Are there ones that I've compromised on records? Yes. That I do not feel that I do not feel like something I would have sang. Yeah. Um, yes, there are those records. Um, but for the most part, I'd say 95% of my music. Um, if I didn't write it, I have felt it. Yeah. Like, you know, and I relate to it. And I am a hardcore fan of music of writers, not just, I mean, I think if you, I mean, whatever, if somebody wants to write their whole record, that's fine. But there are so many, you know, look at this record. I would have missed out on high road and my mistake. I would have missed out on those songs. And those are important messages. I 100% relate to. So it's, it's, I think it's just important for me. Um, and at this point, my career, I don't have to do what I had to do when I was younger, like, um, or what I felt I had to do rather. Um, so at this point, I definitely, I feel the words of high road, just as I feel the roads of lighthouse on this record. Like I don't, it doesn't matter that I wrote it. I'm not, I don't have that big of an ego. Um, yeah. I, I think, I think that there are amazing writers that I know that, man, this song needs to be heard. Like, this is an incredible song. And I don't feel like I have to be, I feel like sometimes artists feel like if you're not writing all your music, like I've been writing tons of my music my whole career. Um, but I don't feel like, you know, I'd have missed out on Pink song, broken and beautiful. That came my way. Like she wrote that song. I love that song. I relate to that song. I love pink. Um, I, you know, there's other artists that I've covered. Like I didn't know same thing kind of happened. Miss Independent. When I wrote on that one, I had no idea. Christina Aguilera was a writer on it until my, the liner. So like I saw my album. I was like, Oh, I was like, and I'm a huge fan of her. So like I love her music. So it, I think you miss out on opportunities. Um, when you let your ego or pride take over and like, Oh, everything has to be my, my pen, my thought, my heart, like that kind of, you know, thing, that's cool if it does. But I do think that you're missing out on opportunities of really being the vessel for some incredible things that, that come your way.

Coming up after a quick break, Kelly shares some life changing advice she took to heart. From someone she calls literally the most unlikable human on the planet. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the great creators. Hey, welcome back to the great creators. Here's more for my conversation with Kelly Clarkson. How do you get better at what you do? Right? I mean, you, you, you've had this 20 year career and you probably are going to have another several, many, many decades ahead of you, um, recording and performing. And so how do you feel like, like, what's your metric for saying, you know, this is, this is even better than what I've done before. I'm, I'm so proud of this. Or this is really, you know, my best work or

whatever it is. Uh, you know, I learned a lesson and I'm this person doesn't even know this. I never knew this, but, um, I, I performed at this benefit years ago. And, you know, I got on stage and was like, oh, I did an art job. That was cool. Like, um, other artists were there and it was like, oh my God, they were cool too. And then Tony Bennett got on stage and I was like, I'm sorry. What? I was like, it was like in his eighties, I feel like. And just when I say crushed us, I mean, we look like we were at a high school talent show. And he looked like he was playing at Carnegie Hall. Like I was like, it just. And not to say all of us are bad. We all did like a good job, but it was like such a lesson in like his voice was even better. Like, and it was, and it was a lesson. I remember because I was introduced to him or whatever. And, and it was just a lesson of just listening to him talk and just for the moment that it was and just hearing people that work with him too. Like he is constantly singing. He is constantly doing stuff. I think that that's the thing. If you use your gift and you really are like, I'm, I sing every day, whether it's for, you know, whatever part under the Kelly Clarkson umbrella, TV, music, whatever, I feel like I'm always singing. I'm always writing. I'm always creating. I've, and I feel like my voice is way better than it was when I was on idol or even 10 years ago. Like I, I just feel like it, it gets healthier and it gets because you. You use it. And if you don't use it, you lose it, right? But they said that about a lot of things, right? So I think that was a lesson like watching him. I was like, OK, I just got to keep, I got to keep doing this. And then in, and also I'm very, I think I'm lucky in the sense that I really love a lot of different styles of music. Like I just, you know, recorded like a standard, you know, with Jeff Goldblum. Like I just, you know, and I'd done that with Robbie Williams

on another project. To he, to he also sing?

No, he played. So it was with his band. Yeah. And it was beautiful pianist, but like it, and it's like more jazz and it was like completely different than what people heard. I've done country. I've done like, I like doing a lot of different styles. So I think constantly always pushing yourself there to makes it interesting. It breaks up in the not knee of making the same record over and over again. Um, you know, because people are like, Oh, I love breakaway. I love stronger. I love piece by piece. Right. And I'm like, cool. Well, you have that. So I'm going to make something different. And I'm like, you, you already have that. I'm not going to top that for you in that area. Like in that, you know, genre, I feel like that was what it was for that genre. So, um, I think also like changing it up and like keeping it interesting for me, um, is what keeps you getting better as well.

What, what's changed about your approach to, to music, to writing and also singing. Um, that's different. I mean, you're a mom. You've got kids. You've obviously been through a few cycles of life and, and, and obviously through one that is connected to this record. But when you, when you think about, you know, who you were earlier in a career and what you wrote or what you sang, how you performed and how you do it now. Given where you are in life, what's the thing that sort of sticks out to you as the most different?

Um, I think a bit of wisdom in there. Like I, when I was younger, like I'd say the first 10 years of my career, like I, I was so, because I grew up singing opera, right? And like when you went in high school and that was in order to get scholarships because I knew I couldn't afford college. So jokes on me, I didn't even go. But like, I, but I, I worked my tail off doing this stuff to, you know, place chair, like do all that kind of stuff. And, um, and usually we'd come in and funny enough, similar to the voice, we would be behind these blinds. Like these things. Like, so the people couldn't see you. They only heard you. So you had to be so precise. I'm talking dynamics like notes, so you could not waver. Everything would dock, you know, a point or whatever. Like so everything counted. So I was so used to having to try and be perfect that like, I think the first 10 years of my career, especially the first few. Were very hard for me, like, because I would just kill myself over like the smallest thing going wrong. Like I would be like, oh my God, like I didn't. And, you know, it was 4 a.m. in the morning and I'm sound checking at the Today Show and no one wants to sing at that time of day, you know, to rehearse or even, you know, the night before you're maybe doing, you know, SNL or something that was like, you've literally had three to four hours of sleep. Like, you know, you'd be so exhausted. And, and I would just, I was so hard on myself. And I think with that, um, and honestly, it came from a person I dislike probably most on this planet, but like, but it came from a person. Like 10 years into my career of like being like, man, like if you, if you're going to look, if you're going to judge yourself like this, like each time you're on stage, you're going to be miserable. Like if you're not doing this and not having fun, like enjoy it. Like it doesn't need to be perfect. Nobody out there heard what you heard. Like, and I, like I said, coming from like the most unlikable human on planet Earth, but it was really solid advice in the sense of like. It literally changed me like to where I was like, okay. And I, and then I just started to enjoy myself. I started to enjoy like, even if I messed up, I'd laugh or something or, or be like, well, that didn't work. Like, you know, like, you know, and you can't be perfect all the time. And I think that that, that really helped me. Um, enjoy it. And it doesn't have to be perfect and it can be emotional and it can be whatever it's going to be, you know, and, and if you have to change the key because you haven't had any sleep or. TMI, but it's your Margaret monthly and everything swollen and it changes like, and you have to sing things differently. Like, it's okay. Like, um, so I think accepting that is just a bit of a wisdom, you know, comes in. So, um, that's probably the thing that I think has been the most healthy lesson and helped me the most.

I love that, that, that you took this piece of advice from the most unlikable person on Earth. Literally. Yeah. Like a woman. And it stayed with you. Yeah.

Well, just the advice. So not necessarily

the being. It was the most unlikable person on Earth. I have some ideas

in my mind. Oh man. It's yeah. Never met anyone like them. Yeah.

So, I mean, as you kind of think about, I mean, you're, you've got these, just all these different things that you, you, you do and you're doing. And this show, this talk show, I mean, by, by any account, it could have been a flop. I mean, there have been so many, right? So many examples of celebrities, right? Starting talk shows that just didn't work.

I know, but I think the gift is I didn't know that guy. Like I didn't like coming into it. I was just like, all right. Like I was like, and honestly, um, if I'm being truthful as well, there was a deal made that was very smart for me, um, as a whole, like. So, you know, I might have signed on to, to do it for multiple reasons. Um, and I was more focused on this reason, you know, and then it just happened to work out, you know, like it was, I didn't know that people had started them. I didn't know how hard it was. I, I was clueless. Ignorance was definitely bliss in that situation. Like I, and honestly, I didn't think it was going to go any, like, you know, they were like at the pilot. They were like, how did you feel? And I was like, I mean, I felt like I was just talking to people. So I feel fine. But like, I just, I don't know that people are going to watch this, but sure, let's, let's do it. Like, you know, it was like, I just didn't, I didn't necessarily have a ton of faith in it. Cause I didn't, I mean, it just was so far fetched from what I ever thought I would be doing. Like, and, you know, but I, I will say it, you know, I've said this before, it. It's like a dream I didn't know I had. Cause I'm able to, like I said, funnel all these creative things to this outlet while also getting to like talk to people I love. I mean, you have to be a curious person to do this job. Like, you know, I'm saying, like when you're naturally curious about how people get where they get or why they chose to do something, like, I think that's helpful. And lately I'm just like that. So, I don't know. I, you're, I'm, I'm more shocked than any human that this worked out. So, and I'm happy it did because it ended up, like I said, being like a dream job I didn't know was a dream. Um, but yeah, I sometimes you just say yes to things for even ulterior motives. And then you just have no idea this blessing that's coming around the corner, which is why it's important to say yes to things I feel like sometimes, even though you don't want to, like it's something out of your comfort zone.

So you do 10 shows for this album to support this record. And that's it. I mean, actually you probably can't do much more than that because you host a talk show. You have to be

doing that for me. And I have my kids like 90% of the time. So yeah, there's a lot going on there. Um, but we do have some surprises up our sleeves and like doing some other things. Um, to not only help promote the album, but honestly, just we love performing it. Like the band and I, we got to perform. I've never done this with a record. I did this birthday at the Velasco show here in Los Angeles and I performed the record from start to finish. Like we performed all the songs and, um, and we've never had the chance to do that before. You know, why generally you wouldn't do that. So it was very important for me to people to visually have something and be as intimate as talking about the songs to before they were released, like, or while they were being released, that was very important to me. Like we've been releasing these videos with a little talking before as well. That was important to me for this record and it's definitely more of an intimate environment. The Vegas thing. I had a Vegas show plan before COVID that was completely different. Um, but this one's more rock and roll. It's more, um, musicianship. It's more lighting. It's more, um, just talking about the music and like why I think sometimes we forget like we're just pumping out singles and no, that's catchy. You know, that'll, you know, whatever, you know, get played on TikTok or whatever. Like, you know, so I think we forget like why you write songs, like why artists write them, why they're so why these records that are so classic are that way. Um, because they mean something and I think we sometimes forget that in the industry, not necessarily the artists more the business behind it. I think the machine behind it can, but, um, but luckily, like Atlantic, like really let me, cause you know, I did all this like two to three years ago and now watching that show, I was like, man, that is how my record was made. Like, you know, I'm saying like it needed to come out. I needed to talk about these messages. There was a reason like, and I feel like we just forget that that's really how this all started, you know, so like music in general and how we connect and why we connect. So, um, it was very important for me to do that show. Like I said, so there, you know, there may be some surprises that were, you know, getting to perform this stuff in more places. Then,

then we thought, yeah, I love, and I love the Steve Martin story about, about just go kind of going to that rabbit hole and saying, well, what if he just does banjo in this record and then, and then, but you can do that. I mean, you can do a version of that pretty much every day on your show. And so you can do weird stuff. You can try all these kind of different experimental things. What are, I don't know what's like some, I don't know, this outlandish idea or are really interesting idea that you have or that you want to. Explore on the show.

You know, I really have enjoyed, um, it's more work, definitely for everyone, but I really do enjoy when every time we've done that, it's been like, because I make it apparent, I don't want people to feel like they come on here and you have to be a part of a variety show. Like, you know, so you don't have to do that. So most of the time it's them at or every time I've been told, like it's those people asking like, Hey, really, they'd love to like when Cynthia, we would come on, like it maybe wasn't her, but it was there. You know, um, Disney, like promoting, uh, it was Disney, right? With Pinocchio? Yeah, if I mess that up, I'm sorry. But anyway, so it was, I'm pretty sure. But anyway, so whenever they, they were like, Hey, would she do when you wish upon a star because she plays the blue fairy and that, and I was like, I love that. I love that song. I love that we've never done anything like that. I'm in love with her voice. She's a gift and such a smart singer as well. So, um, and honestly, one of the greatest singers I've ever had in my in years, it was incredible. I was like, Oh, I feel so. I need like, like, I don't need to be here. Like, um, but it's, it's one of those things where I love those moments. Like when we create that or, um, you know, Shazam, like we had him come on and, and, uh, Zach, and we were able to do a song with him because he loves singing. And it's kind of a really cool thing because a lot of these actors also love singing and also are being parts of bands and also done multiple things. So it's kind of a cool way too for our show to stand out and be different. Um, because I love giving people that opportunity one. Um, but also like it's fun for me creatively just to create these moments that maybe you don't get anywhere else. Um, got to sing with Dolly Parton getting a car first, like all these random people I've been able to sing with. Um, that I adore musically, but also just really cool to create this content that maybe you don't get anywhere else. So musically speaking, I love doing that with the show. Um, and we do get people asking to do it. It's just sometimes we can't always do it because of the schedule because we shoot to a day or whatever. And it is a lot more work. Um, but it's worth it when it really works because it's, um, like I said, just something special that maybe you don't, those are, those are the special moments that I love, um, on the show. Just seeing an actor do something different than you normally do.

And it probably triggers ideas in your head too.

Absolutely. Like even like, you know, when Steve Martin, like I was going, I've always wanted to make, like even from idle, like on idle, I begged them to have a country week, but they're a British owned company. And at the time just didn't really get country music. Like every time I'd bring it up, I was like, no, you don't understand. Like there's a huge population here that loves the genre of music. And, um, they just wouldn't allow us to do a country week. So, um, anyway, then they ended up getting on board. Obviously Allah carry underwood and like all these other people that sing country of Scotty McCreary, all these people that sing country from that show. Yeah. But anyway, I've always wanted to do a country album and even working with, you know, talking to Dwayne Johnson about like how he was like, I love, I was wanted a country, I was doing that. I think Chris Pratt came on. He was talking about that too. He was like, Oh, I love country music. I love, you know, all this stuff. It's like when you talk to people like that, it kind of ignites and re-inspires you, um, to remember some of your dreams, like that you kind of have put on the back burner, you know, so you're right. It is inspiring as well.