Jonathan Howard and Wendy Orent return for a wide-ranging conversation about the state of public health, vaccine policy, and the consequences of ideas they've been documenting since the early days of We Want Them Infected.

They begin with reports of additional measles deaths and the continued spread of the disease among under-vaccinated communities. From there, Jonathan and Wendy examine Andrew Wakefield's appearance at the Children's Health Defense Summit, RFK Jr.'s comments about vaccines, AI, and chemtrails, and growing tensions within the MAHA movement.

The conversation also turns back to COVID. Jonathan highlights research on COVID vaccination in young children and repeat infections, while the pair revisit the BMJ's pandemic-era coverage—including arguments that encouraged childhood infection—and contrast it with more recent scrutiny of vaccine safety monitoring.

They also discuss Jay Bhattacharya's leadership at the NIH, his reported resistance to efforts to politicize NIH grant funding, his addition to the NIH "Hall of Heroes," and his previous support for allowing lower-risk populations to face COVID infection.

Finally, Jonathan and Wendy examine FDA leadership, changing childhood vaccine policy, and reports of major staffing losses and program cuts at the CDC.

The episode closes where it began: with measles once again causing preventable illness and death—and the unsettling realization that many of the public-health consequences Jonathan and Wendy warned about are no longer hypothetical.

In This Episode

New measles deaths and the consequences of declining vaccination
Andrew Wakefield and the Children's Health Defense Summit
RFK Jr.'s comments on vaccines, AI, and "medical tyranny"
Chemtrails and conspiracy theories entering public-health discussions
Growing divisions within the MAHA movement
Corporate influence and the MAHA Summit
Research on repeated COVID infections and chronic health conditions
Evidence on COVID vaccination and severe disease in young children
Vaccine-associated myocarditis and the risk-benefit discussion
The BMJ's pandemic-era arguments about childhood COVID infection
Jay Bhattacharya, NIH funding, and Harvard
The NIH "Hall of Heroes"
The Great Barrington Declaration and infection-based pandemic strategies
FDA leadership and questions surrounding the MMR vaccine
Staffing losses and program cuts at the CDC
Why Jonathan and Wendy remain concerned about the return of vaccine-preventable diseases

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