Topic Talk | The Future of ESL
The A to Z English Podcast
Navigating Language and Culture in Teaching
This chapter examines the unique challenges faced by foreign teachers in Korea, particularly concerning job security amid an evolving educational landscape. It emphasizes the critical relationship between language and culture, arguing that AI cannot replicate the cultural insights gained through human interactions in language learning. The speakers share personal experiences and highlight the ongoing need for human ESL educators to effectively convey the nuanced meanings of language.
In this episode of The A to Z English Podcast, Xochitl and Jack talk about what they think the future of ESL entails.
00:00:00
Jack
Hey, A is the English podcast listeners. It's Jack here and we just want to announce that we are now on WeChat. Our WeChat ID is A-Z English podcast that is A-Z English podcast, one word all lowercase.
00:00:17
Jack
And if you.
00:00:18
Jack
Join the group. You will be able to talk with me. You'll be able to.
00:00:22
Jack
Talk with social.
00:00:23
Jack
And we can answer your questions. We can read your comments on the podcast. So we'd love for you to join us and be active in our we chat group. Our WeChat ID is A-Z English podcast. Thanks. See you on the app.
00:00:48
Jack
Welcome to the A-Z English podcast. My name is Jack and I'm here with.
00:00:52
Jack
My co-host social.
00:00:53
Jack
And today, we're doing a topic talk episode and we're talking about the future of ESL or the future of EFL English as a second language or English as a foreign language.
00:01:05
Jack
And UM.
00:01:06
Jack
I've got a lot of opinions about this social because my job is here in Korea. I teach at the university and so I'm always listening and and trying to predict what the the future of the industry might be.
00:01:25
Jack
Because it kind of greatly affects my my livelihood, my ability to have a job and earn an income.
00:01:34
Jack
And.
00:01:36
Jack
I've I've got my opinions about it. What do you what are your opinions about the future of ESL? What do you what do you think the the future might might bring?
00:01:44
Xochitl
Uhm, you know, I haven't been in the industry nearly as long as you have, Jack. So like, I kind of, I feel like by the time that, you know, because of my age, I'm I'm younger and everything. By the time I graduated college and everything like.
00:02:01
Xochitl
That that the industry was already taking the nosedive while I was, you know, in college, I would say. And, you know, the writing has been on the wall for a while, that there's especially during with the pandemic and a lot of people.
00:02:11
Jack
Yeah.
00:02:21
Xochitl
I mean the no mad lifestyle and teaching classes online and then there were certain difficulties with getting visas and staying in different countries.
00:02:31
Xochitl
During the pandemic and there were, you know, a lot of complications because of COVID that created a ripple effect of a lot of systemic changes that were, I think, already kind of on the on the fringe before, but definitely.
00:02:46
Xochitl
Kicked up uh during and after the pandemic and uh, how do I say this? I'm I'm not really sure about the future. I do know that.
00:02:57
Xochitl
It's not as lucrative a business, you know, as it used to be. I would say definitely people who are in ESL now, it's kind of like a.
00:03:06
Xochitl
A labor of love and it used to be that, you know, 20 years ago, you're starting pay in in a job like what you would get paid in Korea was the same as what you get paid now. And of course it went a lot farther 20 years ago. Yeah.
00:03:19
발표자
Right.
00:03:22
Jack
Yeah, yeah, things are more expensive now. Inflation has basically cut that by 1/3.
00:03:29
Jack
Yeah.
00:03:30
발표자
Hmm.
00:03:31
Jack
Yeah.
00:03:32
Xochitl
The buying power of that same quantity, it's just not what it used to be.
00:03:36
Jack
Thread.
00:03:38
Xochitl
So I don't know and I think that also displayed some people from, you know taking the route of moving to another country because it takes a lot of money which a lot of people also aren't aware of to to move out to another country. Yet in Korea like you get an apartment provided.
00:03:57
Xochitl
And you get a lot of benefits, but just the visa process alone, plus they reimburse you for your flight ticket after like a year of contract, but you have to pay the money.
00:04:06
Xochitl
Front and and a bunch of those related charges. You know, we're talking about hundreds or over $1000 and then.
00:04:15
발표자
MHM.
00:04:19
Xochitl
You know your pay is just so. So I think it makes a lot of people question whether they want.
00:04:24
Xochitl
To be like.
00:04:26
Xochitl
Work to the bone in some of these jobs. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it, I think on both ends, both for, you know, schools that are hiring teachers from outside of the country when they. I think it's also become a thing of why should I go through the hassle of.
00:04:43
Xochitl
Hiring someone from outside of my country and paying for their health check and paying for their visa sponsorship and all. And you know, making sure they are who they say they are doing background check and receiving all these documents and processing them like why should I go through all this trouble when I can get someone in my own country with thanks to globalization and better education tools they might.
00:05:03
Xochitl
Speak, you know perfect English and I can just get someone who already knows the culture as well and who I won't have to worry about like.
00:05:11
Xochitl
Holding their hand and walking them through the process of moving to a new country and from the teachers perspective, it's like why should I uproot my whole life? I mean, a lot of people do anyway because of the adventure.
00:05:15
발표자
Yeah.
00:05:23
Xochitl
Aspect.
00:05:24
Xochitl
But at the same time it's like.
00:05:27
Xochitl
Why should I uproot my whole life to make minimal pay? You know, when I could just.
00:05:34
Xochitl
Vacation there instead. Or you know whatever. So I think both of those things have a are having an impact on the current market. What do you think?
00:05:44
Jack
Yeah. No, I think you're right on. I think you're on target there on the mark, there's a couple. There's kind of two different.
00:05:53
Jack
Boxes that I am thinking about, the two two kind of category.
00:05:58
Jack
Worries the first one is what you were talking about. It's like there's plenty of capable people in Korea and Japan and and China who speak English, just who speak English very well, who can teach, who are who are Chinese, or who are Korean, or who are Japanese they can.
00:06:18
Jack
Teach people in their own country you know, they're like, why do you need to bring in an expensive?
00:06:26
Jack
Uh foreigner to teach English when you can get.
00:06:33
Jack
Just the same quality from someone from your country, and it's probably much cheaper to.
00:06:41
Jack
You know you you you can avoid all the other expenses. You know the the travel expenses and the the bonuses and stuff like that, that they have to offer to attract people from other countries to come here.
00:06:53
Jack
Also, I think the the fascination with like English is starting to wear off a little bit like it's not.
00:07:01
Jack
UM, I I don't know. It's it's, it's not as.
00:07:07
Jack
How can I say it's?
00:07:10
Xochitl
People are thinking like it's not, like, indispensable now that you know English.
00:07:16
Jack
Yeah. Yeah, right. It's it's, it's not. It's not as special as it maybe once was or.
00:07:23
Jack
And.
00:07:24
Jack
You you know, I mean, I I think it's it's more of a I think people are learning it because English is still the the de facto international business language like that's the way companies or people and companies will communicate with each other internationally they'll use English as the.
00:07:44
Jack
The is the the common language, but that takes me to the other side of the of the issue. The other part of the issue, which is the technology you know you can you could write a form letter in seconds using chat EPT in perfect English.
00:08:01
Jack
Whereas before you used to see really hard and understand all the grammar and then write the letter yourself, you know now you can, it'll just spit out a perfect English form letter or any letter for you immediately if you just type in a few prompts.
00:08:20
Xochitl
Goodnight.
00:08:20
Jack
And UM.
00:08:22
Jack
And that's a big change. That was a big game changer, I think. And the other thing is I think the technology is going to get better like.
00:08:33
Jack
Apps like Papago or Google Translate are able to take a foreign language and and translate it into English in a very almost perfect manner. Like it's it's quite accurate and.
00:08:52
Jack
It used to be really not inaccurate. It used to used to be nonsense. It was really funny actually, when I would read essays that were translated through Google Translate because.
00:09:05
Xochitl
Wait.
00:09:06
발표자
You know.
00:09:07
Jack
Yeah.
00:09:07
Xochitl
It was so obvious.
00:09:08
Jack
Right. You were. So yeah, it was like something like, you know, I don't know. It just just bizarre, crazy things that I that I that I that I read there and now you now now it's much it's much more accurate. So you've got tools that are that are getting better and better.
00:09:29
Jack
For for people to translate.
00:09:31
Jack
And then finally the you know in the future I think you know it's going to be to the point where you might be able to put like an air pod in your ear and and speak your native language and the other person that you're talking to is going to hear English in their earpiece and then they'll speak into.
00:09:52
Jack
Their device and the other person will hear their native language, and so conversations will be totally.
00:10:02
Jack
Capable or possible between two people who don't speak any common language. You might not be smooth, you know, as smooth as doing it in real, real time. But as the technology gets better, I think you know it might become seamless. Where?
00:10:22
Jack
The conversation is very easily had between two people.
00:10:27
Jack
Using just using technology, but I still think there's going to be a desire among a certain group of people to learn the language. Uh the old fashioned way just for their own.
00:10:43
Xochitl
Self Improvement company.
00:10:43
Jack
Shall we say?
00:10:44
Jack
Like edification, you know their own satisfaction of, of being able to say I'm a bilingual person, I speak English and I speak Chinese or or Spanish or or Japanese or whatever.
00:11:01
Jack
And they'll be able to. They'll get better positions in companies, I think because they'll be able to sit down and have a negotiation, a conversation in English with with someone and that that would be, it'll still be a benefit for people, but there's going to be other avenues that people can use other.
00:11:20
Jack
Methods that are going to be.
00:11:23
Jack
And not as good as, as uh as learning the language but still allow them to communicate on some level. And so the more that these this technology gets better and advances, the less you need there is for, you know foreign.
00:11:43
Jack
Imported foreign teachers.
00:11:46
Jack
To teach English in countries like Korea and China and Japan. And so I just see I see it becoming less and less necessary between having local people do it and then also using the technology as it gets better. And you put the comp, you combine those two together.
00:12:06
Jack
And it's to me, it's like bye bye birdie. You know, like goodbye.
00:12:13
Jack
To my job, you know? So I I worry about that. Not not that much, because I'm already, you know, almost 50 years old. So the age of retirement is not far away from me, really. So I think I'll be able to hang in there for the for the, you know. But I think I I got lucky.
00:12:32
Jack
Just.
00:12:33
Jack
I'll be one of the last of the groups of of people of my generation. My generation will be the last group that kind of does it this way and they'll some new model and some new method is going to emerge and I'm not sure if that will include foreign English teachers.
00:12:53
Jack
Or not. You know, I'm not sure. No one can tell the future, but I'm just a little bit concerned for young people teaching English in Korea, whether they're still gonna have a job 5/10/15 years from now, I'm not sure.
00:13:08
Xochitl
Are you?
00:13:10
Xochitl
UM.
00:13:12
Xochitl
How do I say this? Are you?
00:13:17
Xochitl
Are there are these positions like the one that you have? Are they tenured positions like is there like?
00:13:23
Jack
No, we we're contract workers, you know. So we, yeah, we we get two year contracts and so that you know we keep signed resign and re sign and resign 2 year contracts. So yeah there's no there's no guarantee for me that you know these if if it goes away.
00:13:27
발표자
Oh.
00:13:44
Jack
I have to.
00:13:46
Jack
You know, and I'll be. I'll be be kind of old to be looking for a new new career. You know, it would be very difficult for me to find another job. I'm not. I don't think I'm suitable, really. For anything else other than teaching English as a second language. To be honest, it's all I've done for the last 2020 years.
00:14:08
Xochitl
Right. Yeah, geez, that's absolutely wild to think about. It's like I didn't. I didn't really realize that the positions were like, like, So what? What do you mind me asking? What position? Like what is it called like? Are you are you like a professors aide or are you like a?
00:14:10
Jack
I'm scary.
00:14:28
Xochitl
OK.
00:14:28
Jack
Ohh yeah, so my official position is professor, associate professor.
00:14:35
Xochitl
OK, so you're an associate professor, so.
00:14:36
발표자
Yeah.
00:14:37
Jack
Yeah.
00:14:39
Xochitl
That's wild to me that you would have an associate professor on a two year.
00:14:44
Xochitl
Contract.
00:14:46
Jack
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of contract workers. Yeah, 10 years, really. You know, for the PHD's, you know, people who are doing research, you know, I'm not a research. I'm not a researcher. I'm a basically a a teacher. You know, I mean, I.
00:15:05
Jack
I don't even like the word professor. You know, in America we don't.
00:15:11
Jack
If you teach at a university, you are a professor. I mean, that's basically the way that works.
00:15:17
Jack
We just have one word for it here. You know, in a lot of countries, they have a lot of different names for the different levels and I don't know what all those are in Korean, but I know that my level is not, you know, it's not the high up level, it's it's a.
00:15:34
Jack
It's it's just a, you know, I'm a contract worker. Uhm uh. But you know it's the contract has always been guaranteed, you know, so I've never worried about not getting another contract. The The what I worry about is, are those things that I was talking about before, is that when it gets to the point where we're no longer needed.
00:15:56
Jack
And the school really has to, you know, assess whether this is even necessary anymore given the new technology, given the the skills of of current teachers here in Korea, you know, do do we need these foreign?
00:16:15
Jack
This foreign faculty and that that is, you know, and I don't blame I I don't blame them either, you know, I mean, it's just like.
00:16:23
Jack
The way things progress and and things happen, you you become you become redundant. As we say in English, there's just no it's. You're not needed anymore because there are other other things or other people that can do the same thing that you're doing. And so you become kind of.
00:16:43
Jack
On uh, uh. What's the word I'm looking for? You become unnecessary, I guess.
00:16:54
Xochitl
Yeah, but uh.
00:16:58
Xochitl
Well.
00:17:00
Xochitl
I have a counterpoint actually to this thought process I that I just thought of as I was listening to you talking to this. Mm-hmm. I think as someone who grew up as a balanced bilingual, I think the language like, even if we get AI to perfectly, you know, simulate language and have a a seamless conversation between two people.
00:17:20
Xochitl
Language.
00:17:21
Xochitl
Is so.
00:17:22
Xochitl
So.
00:17:23
Xochitl
Cultural there's so many cultural aspects to learning a language, and I think those will always be important to experience and master on so many levels on economic skill because like, if you're working in business or client relations or whatever, you're going to have to know about the other.
00:17:42
Xochitl
Person's culture.
00:17:44
Xochitl
UM, as an appreciative measure, so you can truly understand the culture on a different level, like on a deeper level. There's so many reasons why I think the.
00:17:54
Xochitl
That that learning language is it has a deeply cultural component that's important, that can't be replicated through AI, and that won't be able to be replicated through a.
00:18:06
Xochitl
A person like for example a a Korean person or a Chinese person teaching English. Just like when I was in college and I was learning Mandarin Chinese, we had a professor from China visiting professor from China every year and they would have two year contracts as well and they would be part of our.
00:18:27
Xochitl
Uh, class structure and I think it was really important because they brought cultural knowledge, cultural components. They brought expressions that were only used that like our professor, who wasn't Chinese, wouldn't have like, really known. Like, he's still completely fluent Chinese. You know what I mean? But he still wouldn't have had that cultural component.
00:18:48
Xochitl
As he didn't grow up in the culture, even though he had lived abroad, even though he spoke perfect Chinese, he was lacking those cultural components that we got and appreciated so much from the visiting professor from.
00:19:02
Xochitl
I know.
00:19:04
Jack
Yeah, that's a good point that that's a great point, yeah.
00:19:04
Xochitl
And.
00:19:09
Xochitl
So I'm hoping I'm hoping that there will still be institutions that value that you know because, you know, I'm kind of thinking about getting back into the ESL game. I mean, I'm, I'm still in it. I haven't loved it because we do the podcast and we have the English corner. But just getting back into it as a full time job just because.
00:19:15
발표자
Yeah.
00:19:30
Xochitl
We we talked about this many times before, but you know, a job in Korea is like life in a bottle and there's so many benefits that are hard to come by in a job in the.
00:19:38
Xochitl
That's like great healthcare, the pension things that are just kind of becoming obsolete as benefits in any position in the US, whether it be entry level or even further up the ladder. It's like those kind of benefits were for Gen. X's and older and you can't get them really anymore as a.
00:19:58
Xochitl
Millennial or Gen. Z entering the workforce. And so I think that's something that's very attractive to me as someone looking to.
00:20:07
Xochitl
Go back to teach English. You know, full time in a foreign country. There are so many benefits that would be hard to come by here.
00:20:16
발표자
Yep.
00:20:17
Xochitl
And yeah, so it's definitely something that I'm interested in. And so I'm hoping that that aspect, the cultural aspect and the the aspects of language that can't be replicated through. I I'm hoping this.
00:20:28
Xochitl
Will still be valued.
00:20:30
Xochitl
Yeah, I can keep a job, you know.
00:20:33
Jack
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, and I think that you might be right. You know what? Because we do the idiom Academy. I mean, how are you going to? How are you going to explain how is AI going to understand the all the nuances of the of the language when you know and translate it in a way that's going to capture the nuance?
00:20:51
Jack
You know, a lot of the times when I explain an idiom or a phrasal verb meaning to a student, I have to explain the context of like the culture and say like well, in American culture we do this. And so because we do this, we say this.
00:21:08
Jack
And because, uh, this thing that we do kind of relates to what you're trying to describe, you know, metaphorically we we say this, but I mean that's a lot that's a lot of that's a that's a lot of frog leaping from.
00:21:08
Xochitl
Yep.
00:21:28
Jack
The actual you know expression to the meaning and I'm not sure the. I'm not sure that there's any AI or at least right now any any translation device that's able to really cap.
00:21:43
Jack
Sure. You know specifically the nuance of the of the meaning or the context of the meaning necessarily and that might be the thing that saves us, is that, yeah, the culture that that you're, you're not just teaching the language, you're teaching the culture and the two are.
00:21:57
Xochitl
Hopefully.
00:22:05
Jack
Are kind of woven together like a like a rug. You know, it's you can't separate them.
00:22:12
Xochitl
There's a a language is just a rich tapestry that weaves together so many things. It's it includes culture, history, expressions and so much of language is also physical. Like there's so many gestures that are unique to, you know, different countries and different languages, like in in Spanish.
00:22:32
Xochitl
In Mexico specifically, I don't know about other Spanish speaking countries, but when we're agreeing with someone while they're talking, a lot of times you like replicate and head nod with your index finger. And so when foreigners see that, they're like, what is that gesture to explain. Ohh. They're agreeing with them, but they don't want to interrupt or whatever. So they're.
00:22:47
Jack
Yeah. Yes.
00:22:52
Xochitl
You know, and similar like in Korean culture. When you hand things to an elder, you use both hands, cause that's respectful. There's so many tiny nuances, I think it would take it's.
00:23:00
발표자
Yeah.
00:23:04
Xochitl
To take at least another like 100 years for AI to get all of that down, I think so.
00:23:10
Jack
I hope so. Yeah, that would be great. That would give me enough time, plenty of time to finish my career at the same institution.
00:23:13
발표자
Yes.
00:23:22
Jack
Yeah, I mean I that that is that's the. That's the counterpoint. I mean that that, you know, I think in for simple sentences and easy stuff it's going to be the translation tools are good. But when it comes to.
00:23:35
Jack
The you know the the particular, you know, context and the nuances, I don't know if there's any AI that can really capture that properly. And so yeah, that may be the the one saving grace for for our jobs.
00:23:56
발표자
Yeah.
00:23:56
Xochitl
Yeah, well, let's hope that it is, and I'm curious to hear from our students this time. I really, really want to know what you guys think about the future of ESL, because you guys are.
00:24:09
Xochitl
Students of you know English as a foreign language. A lot of you guys are in our English corner. Which shameless plug here. Our English corner runs Monday through Friday for an hour a day and we have a lot of. We have a lot of discussions like this. This may actually be an interesting discussion to posit in English corner. Actually I'm I'm very curious to know what you guys think.
00:24:25
Jack
Yeah.
00:24:31
Xochitl
So make sure you leave us a comment down below at 8 OS englishpodcast.com shoot us an e-mail at podcast@gmail.com Jack and I really love to get your emails and make sure you join the WhatsApp and we took group to join the conversation. And again, if you're interested in our.
00:24:47
Xochitl
English corner. Make sure that you message Jack or I or the A-Z English broadcast only chat or WhatsApp and we will make sure to get back to you with more information about that and I'll see.
00:24:56
Xochitl
You next time. Bye bye.
00:24:58
Jack
Bye.
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