Filippo "Sketchy" Buzzini builds his visual portfolio by being authentically himself - S13/E02

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Episode notes

Visual practitioner Filippo "Sketchy" Buzzini shares how he is bartering his skills for other services and learning skills, growing his portfolio, and visiting new places at the same time. Sketchy is a firm believer in creating a broad comfort zone.

Running Order

Intro
Welcome
Who is Filippo?
Origin Story
Filippo’s current work
Tips
Tools
Where to find Filippo
Outro

Tools

Amazon affiliate links support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.

Neuland
Outliners with chisel and round tip
No.One Art Brush
BigOne Art brush
Ink refillers
FineOne Flex with flexible tips
Graphic Wally
Drone Camera
IPEVO camera
AcrylicOne marker
iPad Pro 11”
Procreate
Concepts App
Post-it Notes

Tips

Barter your services.
Ask your colleagues, connect, share, and give.
Prepare your title ahead.
Use Post-it notes.

Credits

Producer: Alec Pulianas
Theme music: Jon Schiedermayer
Shownotes and transcripts: Esther Odoro

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Mike Rohde: Hey everyone, it's Mike, and I'm here with Filippo "Sketchy" Buzzini. Tell me about the sketchy word, Filippo. I'm really curious, where did this come from as you tell us who you are and what you do?

Filippo "Sketchy" Buzzini: Yes. Hello. Thank you, Mike. It's great to be here. The sketchy word, I guess because I'm a sketchy character. It comes from, my name is Filippo Buzzini. I'm a visual practitioner from Switzerland with my company, it's called Sketchy Solutions.

Because I don't want to limit myself to one specific field, as long as I can draw it and help you find a solution to a problem, I'm happy to do it and give it a try. That's why Sketchy Solutions. The great thing of having a company of just one employee is that you can pick your own title. So I am the Chief Sketching Officer of Sketchy Solutions.

MR: I saw that.

FSB: I'm a visual practitioner from Switzerland. I live now in Bern, the capital city, but I grew up in the Italian-speaking part in Locano in the South of Switzerland. The warmer, sunnier, and palm tree, French part of Switzerland.

MR: Ah, there we go.

FSB: What do I do? Mostly, I do a lot of graphic recordings. But in general, like anything, as I said, any type of sketchy solution that we can think of. I do always more strategic visualizations. I give visual thinking workshops, and I do also some illustration work, design work. I've been drawing, for example, book covers or book illustrations. I've done some logos or t-shirt designs.

I'm also one of the visual storytellers of Drawify. It's a project where for people that don't want to draw themselves, we're a group of visual storytellers from around the world that are drawing templates and connectors and icons that can be dragged and dropped on a blank canvas and adapted.

Also, been developing some fonts as well lately because I'm very interested in lettering. That's also something that I've taught a little bit and I'm planning to teaching some more online. So yeah, I think in general, like for many things in my life, I need variety, I need change. I need to be challenged on as many levels as possible 'cause otherwise, I get bored.

MR: You're quite the generalist then, I would say. It seems to me.

FSB: Yes. Or I'm a multi-specialist.

MR: Multi-Specialist. I like that even better than generalist. That's really great. And so, that leads me to my next question. How did you end up in this space? This is my favorite question of every podcast, 'cause I get to hear the stories of all these interesting characters in our space, visual thinkers. Let's start from when you were a little kid. I imagine when you were a little kid, you probably drew a lot, but maybe not. Tell us that story.

FSB: I’ve always been drawing and I always had to occupy my time creatively. I think I've always been building things and creating little stories when playing with my Legos and Playmobils. Drawing was always something that I did it to, well, occupy my time or especially at school, when I was bored, I just took a pen and started doodling. Doodling on the page and filling a page. I had more drawings than notes on any given booklet or whatever that I had.

I think in general, I grew up and I've always been a quick learner, but it also meant that I was getting bored pretty quickly of things. I always needed challenges in my life. I don't know, I think there's few things that always characterize me is that well, I think creativity. I always need to find a creative output, to be different, to do the things kind of my way.

A great curiosity for everything. I get passionate about, really plenty of things and I wanna know more. If I like something, I never get enough of it. I just wanna get further. And adrenaline too is something that I constantly seek. I guess growing up then, yeah, I've been drawing for a while and then been interested in graffiti, in street art, doing a lot of it on paper.

I always felt a bit different from the other people and not really fitting in. And I found a good outlet in punk music. Like really punk music where — but I think it was a catalyst as well to my creativity because there was something where you can bend the rules, where you can go your own way, where you don't need to be precise to do something. You just create. You know, just a few chords, a few emotion, and you just get it out.

And I guess that's also what sparked my drawing that is like, I was never great a drawing class. I could not work exact portrait, but I always had the ideas on how to do things. I could do it simple. It could be, you know, as long as you have the right energy, you could DIY, you could do it yourself and you can just get going and no matter if you make mistakes.

That's the thing, just like drawing, like punk music, everybody can do it. Everyone can do it. So, everybody can feel empowered and try new things. And I guess the creativity, adrenaline, and curiosity, it's something that accompany me as well.

In other aspects of my life, for example, I really like action sports, like board sports. I do a lot of snowboarding. I do kite surfing, you know, or summer things, I go hiking a lot, and I'm just wowed by nature all the time. I keep getting inspiration from that. I'm very keen traveler as well. This as well, I guess goes on with the curiosity and the adrenaline.

That's for the context. I left the Italian-speaking part of Switzerland for studies. I went to Frieburg in the French-speaking part. I have a master's degree in history of contemporary societies and geography.

I think that also contributed to my visual thinking by giving me a framework on how to think, how to analyze information objectively, how to grasp the important topics, how to get to what is important and how can you summarize complex topics by keeping it to the core.

And I guess that re-structure my thinking. That is why I kept drawing a lot because well, having a master's degree and every time I was bored in class, I was drawing. That means I've been on class desks for many years. For 20 years, there was like well, many, many hundreds of hours of drawing practice anytime I was bored.

After that, I worked for an NGO that was empowering young people to make their sustainable project into life through workshop. Then I was facilitating workshops. There as well, I got an in into the non-formal type of education and different way of learning and teaching, and facilitating. I think that also helped. After that, I worked for the European mobility programs. I was responsible for Switzerland for youth information network.

And there as well being at the service of young people. Always young people could come to me or my colleagues all over Europe and just ask information about starting working or volunteering abroad. And there as well would help me, I know always adapting the type of solution to the needs of the person asking.

When my contract ran out with this job after three years, the second last week, there was a workshop, two hours workshop during our international meeting on visual thinking given by Tonja Wehr From Germany. And my mission there was like, okay, write down one project you're gonna work on in the future for this network and try to draw it. And because I was about to quit my job, I was drawing, okay, my mission is to find a job. And I drew that.

Well, little did you know that actually, the job would've been the drawing that I was doing, looking for other jobs instead of the actual content. Well, the feedback was very positive from colleagues from all over Europe, and say, "Oh, you're good at that and stuff." Was like, "Maybe I should try it. Why looking for a job? Why don't I try to learn more about it, and the worst-case scenario I learn a new skill and among other things."

Then I got my hands on your book, "The Sketchnote, Handbook," and it was a revelation like yours and then Brandy Agerbeck's, Graphic Facilitations Guide. They were eye-openers. And then I just started. My partner at the time was organizing an international conference and development corporation in the water sector. And she was like, "We cannot pay you, but why don't you come along and do some graphic recording just to see one, if you're able, and two, if you like it."

MR: Good practice.

FSB: Yeah. And that was, what was it? May 2017, my very first graphic recording.

MR: Really? Wow.

FSB: A couple of weeks before, I also took part on Mona Ebdrup From Denmark. She's used to study in Bern, and she was giving visual confidence training. And I really needed some confidence because already my first graphic recording booked up, but I didn't have a clue where to start. And it really, really helped me. Really giving me the confidence to just go out and try. In a very anarchistic way, I just said, "Just go on, just do it."

And I wasn't satisfied at all about my results. Like, oh, they can be so much better, but people in the room were wowed. And I'm like, "Okay, yeah, there's something to that. There's something to that." Then in the meantime, I found another job and I said, "I need to reinvent myself."

I took an internship in a development corporation organization where among the other things were organizing a conference in Australia, and I was like, yes, I take an internship, but I would also like to develop my visual thinking skills, so I'd love to do a graphic recording at the conference in Australia.

I did that. One of my first full day graphic recording was actually in Queensland, was actually in Australia. Since then, well, after that internship was done, I already had several rough recording. I worked with three previous employers in the first six months. I was like, "Yeah, there's something into it."

So decided in March 2018 to go all in and invest and starting doing visual thinking my full job. I had zero clients when I took this decision, I just love doing it. I know I could do it in all the language of Switzerland plus English, that means also all the language of the neighboring countries. I see that there was potential for growth. Since then, I don't know, it's been a rollercoaster that full of highlights that doesn't stop since.

MR: But sort of fulfills your need for the adrenaline, right?

FSB: Absolutely. Yeah.

MR: The jumping in without—

FSB: The recording, it gives me this adrenaline, this adrenal boost. Also, for the curiosity, it's always something new. It keeps changing. You cannot get bored. That's why it's my icky guy, I guess.

MR: Nice, nice. I would guess, you know, for those wondering where the adrenaline comes from, the adrenaline comes from, this could all go wrong really easily, right? It could go bad. I think that's what, oddly enough, I've discovered in myself, like doing things that I never have done before.

I'm not a thrill seeker. Like I'm not a snowboarder or kite surfer or anything, but there's something fun, a little bit like improv, right, when you go into a space and there's she possibility that anything could happen is really fun, right? Of course, you could crash and burn, and that might be fun for some people to watch, but that makes the success even sweeter, right?

The possibility is you could crash and burn, and then actually, you deliver something. Like you said, the first one you did, you thought was terrible or wasn't good up to your spec, and yet everybody else in the room, because they don't practice that skill whatsoever. To them, it was amazing, right? So that's gotta be satisfying and I think draws you into more wanting to try stuff.

FSB: Yeah, absolutely. I think also, just having an attitude of, it doesn't need to be perfect. You can make mistakes. And seeking the thrill, like, just the same way when I get to go puncture when I still go switch stage diving with 37-year-old, and I don't care. Maybe they don't catch you, but it's just about jumping. It's just about going for it. It's going for it.

I see mistakes sometimes that I point out mistakes to my clients, maybe in some work that I do. But in general, it's just about going for it and having the confidence that you're doing your best. You're trying to help. You're trying to help and you're trying to provide a service and an added value to your client. Even a not your best work can be extremely helpful.

MR: Yes. It can have value. Interesting. I have to tell you, my impression of Switzerland, I've only been there once, is that it's a very buttoned up, very conservative, very structured place. If you're in Switzerland and you're working, you must really stand out, Filippo. Is that a pretty good guess or am I misinterpreting Switzerland? Maybe Switzerland is different than I realize.

FSB: Oh, no, no. Switzerland is definitely very buttoned up and let's say, well, boring or reliable.

MR: Yes. Yeah, very reliable. The trains run on time in Switzerland.

FSB: But yeah, I don't fit in. I guess I've got a bit of leeway, a bit of game, the fact that I'm from Italian-speaking part. We are considered Italians of Switzerland, even though the sports national team we support is not Italy, but still, we have a bit more of a laid-back way of facing work and life. And so, there's a little bit of game there, but even there, I don't really feel like I fit in myself. I get some jokers because of that.

I'm selling myself, I'm selling not just my services. I'm selling, my business is me, is my person. So I need to be authentic. I always wear caps, and some clients might not be so—you might not feel so comfortable of wearing caps in between suits, but then I designed my own caps so that's kind of part of my uniform.

For example, I went to the United Nations in Geneva, and I went past security, I had my shoes, like nice shoes and gel in my hair and I was wearing a tie and a jacket and whatever, but as soon as I passed security, I put on my hat and changed my shoes for Converse. And it's like, "Nope. No compromising on that."

MR: That's great to hear that.

FSB: That's my uniform.

MR: Well, I think that sets you apart, right? When they say Sketchy, everybody knows who that is. They don't even have to say your real surname or your name at all. It's sketchy.

FSB: I guess I don't know. Also, in my work, several colleagues have told me that they can recognize my work from—they can say, "Oh, okay, that's Sketchy. That's Filippo's work." Because I don't know, I guess there are some rules to follow, but I always like to bend them and adapt it to myself. I do not wanna do graphic recordings in the way, like the standard. Learning how to make the—like there are dozens of people doings that could be interchangeable.

MR: Yeah, exactly.

FSB: I think that my personality, the energy needs to come out in my work and I'm not really compromising on that. Lots of clients like it, some don't, but then I'm just not the right people for those that don't.

MR: Yeah. Exactly. The right people find you. Tell me a little bit about something you've done recently that you're excited about. Could be work stuff, maybe it's something else.

FSB: Well, what I've done recently that I'm pretty excited about, it's kind of work-related, but let's say I wasn't really paid for that, but I did some graphic recordings in Antarctica.

MR: Really?

FSB: Yeah. It was a dream of mine to set foot on the one continent I've never been on the seven Continents. I had a chance during one work event to meet some people from a company that offer cruises to Antarctica. And my goal was to reach out and say, "Hey guys, I can do a lot of things for you. Can we make a deal or something?" The graphic recording was not part of the deal, but I've got a very good offer, a pretty massive discount in exchange of some drawings that they can use for the marketing.

And when I was there, I'm like, "Well, I have to do some graphic recording. You never know. Does anybody has ever done it?” There were all these presentations on glaciers and on Wales. And like that I was like, yeah, it will be a pity if I don't do it because I don't know if it's ever been done. It was just super great to combine—in general, I've reached a good satisfying level of work-life balance where my life supports my work and vice versa.

I've become a big fan of bartering. I know we're in a privileged position in our job because we do something that people like and everybody can use it in some way. I'm always more doing, "Hey, what can I do for you and what can you do for me? And let's just exchange that." I'm going to Japan snowboarding in couple of weeks and I don't need to pay for accommodation because I've drawn the logo of this ski school where I'm staying.

MR: Be creative, right?

FSB: Or like, I'm not paying for coffee. I have a deal here with my best friend. I just get free coffee and then whenever they need something, some flyers for events, or the blackboard with the menu and stuff, I'll just do it. So, I guess that, yeah.

That speaks to your open nature. I would say, you seem like a very open person to new experiences, right? So, when you do that kind of thing, you open yourself up. Like tomorrow, you might come in and they say, "Hey Filippo, we need a big poster for a party next week. Can you make that for us?"

Like, "Yeah, go for it." Now you have a poster that you made, right? So, it goes into your catalog of number one, skills, but also number two, now you have a portfolio piece that says, "Yeah, I've done that before." And it just adds to your opportunity.

I always thought of it that way whenever there was a problem or something to solve, I always felt like that was good. 'Cause every time I solve a problem, I now have something in my library to help solve the next problem that I don't know is coming. It becomes part of my solution set. And I think it feels like you've sort of approached it in a similar way.

FSB: Yeah, absolutely. That's what I said before about the name of the company, Sketchy Solutions. Why? Because if you're an English speaker, it sounds like, "What the hell is that?" It doesn't sound positive, but it's literally what I do, it's sketchy solutions. And if a client ask me, "Oh, can you do that?" And it's something I've never done, usually, I go, "Yes." And then I'll figure out on the way to do it.

I like to be open to learning new things, to be challenged to learning new things, and figuring out new ways of working. Of course, then to amplify my portfolio because also curiosity and the need to be constantly challenged and the stepping out of—I don't know if it's stepping out of the comfort zone is the right way.
I was thinking about it some month ago, and I don't believe I'm somebody that is very comfortable stepping out of the comfort zone. But I just believe that I have a very broad comfort zone.

MR: Interesting. That's an interesting way to think of it, like broadening your comfort zone. So, what maybe in the past was uncomfortable is now just, "I've done that before. We can do that."

FSB: What's uncomfortable gives me adrenaline, makes me rush. Like even stress in the end. Adrenaline is stress. So, I'm like, okay, I'm stressing about that. It's good. It's good.

MR: You turn that energy. I remember someone when I was first learning how to do public speaking, and his comment was, when you get butterflies, you're going up in front to speak in front of somebody. He's like, "That's good, Mike. That is energy. You're excited about what's coming. You need to turn it into a positive and then give it back to your audience." So, it's just energy, if you redirect it, it can be really powerful. Which it sounds like your motto and your mantra, I guess, that you follow.

FSB: Yeah, no, absolutely. In general, I seek thrills in my private life and in my job. And they're intertwined.

MR: Interesting. That's really great to hear. Let's do a little shift now. Let's talk a little bit about your favorite tools. We'll begin with analog and then go digital. Markers, paper, notebooks, pencils, I don't know, whatever stuff you like. And then jump into your, whatever you use digitally.

FSB: So analog, I’m a huge Neuland fan. They have the whole lot. For a visual practitioner, you cannot hope for more. Everybody's super lovely. Also, the people, they have refillable markers. Sustainable. Say for graphic recording, typically I would have the No.One—No, the outliner, both the black outliner, both with Chisel and a round tip.

Then a couple of other colors I know I'm gonna use with black, I always have the No.One, both Art, so brush, tip and chisel, and the big one as well, chisel. And now that there is the BigOne Art as well, that's also. So, I will always have the set for each color and then the refiller of those colors as well.

So that I always have a choice of what marker to use. But I also love, for example, for Sketchnoting on smaller formats. Now they have this new FineOne. What are they called? FineOne Flex with the flexible tips.

MR: Yep. I love that one too.

FSB: Yeah, I really, really like that. They're great for lettering as well.

MR: Yeah.

FSB: There's a different size of the stroke. I've got the graphic wall. One of my first project in 2018 was a brand filmmaker and another producer storyteller. We did a video where I was filming with drone and everything. We were in the Swiss mountains or in front of the government building or In Geneva at the UN. We were just moving around the graphic wall and telling a story with that and drawing with that.

Graphic Wally, I use as well for online workshops. I guess analog, well, there again, it's kind of digital tools, but the IPEVO. I recently got an IPEVO camera. It's a document camera which is great. I use it mostly for making what they call the time loops. No, time lapses.

MR: Yeah. They take a shot and then you wait a bit of time and keep taking shots.

FSB: No. Well, pretty much I take a video and I speed it up.

MR: You kinda squeeze it. Yeah, speed it up.

FSB: Speed it up so that it looks really nice as well. I guess pretty much, I guess Neuland has all what I need for my needs.

MR: All your needs. Yeah.

FSB: I use the AcrylicOne's to draw. My balcony tables are all completely drawn. You could give me a marker in my hand, I will start filling whatever surfaces in front of me.

MR: That's great. That's great. And then digital, I'm assuming you must use an iPad as well, and what's the app that you like to use there?

FSB: I have an iPad Pro 11 inches.

MR: Oh, me too.

FSB: Boring as everybody, Procreate. I'm using Procreate. The flow is so nice with Procreate. There's so many option, I guess the force of habit. And otherwise, I also use Concepts for when I need to do something vector-based. But I feel like, yeah, it does not have the same flow, the same ease of use as Procreate.

MR: Different interface. Yeah, for sure.

FSB: That's about it.

MR: Simple tools.

FSB: Yeah.

MR: Well, that's really great. Let's shift now again to tips. This is the place where I invite you to think about someone listening, who is in the visual thinking, whatever that means to them, but maybe they feel like they're on a plateau or they just need some encouragement from you, Filippo, what would be three things you would tell them can be practical, can be mindset, whatever that you would share to encourage them.

FSB: For sure, as I mentioned before, something I really like to do now, and I think that more of us should do that. Barter, barter your services. You have very unique set of skills. Just what do you like from potential clients or from your friends? You wanna go to holidays somewhere, just reach out and say, what can I do for you? And you'd be surprised at all the good deals that might come your way in exchange of your drawings and your skills. So, barter.

MR: Love that.

FSB: Second one is ask your colleagues, connect, share, and give. I've learned so much. When I started, I connected first with the European visual practitioners and then also with the IFDP, and now we also have some meetings in Switzerland of a visual practitioners in Switzerland just to exchange and learn from each other at any given moment is so extremely valuable because most of us we're working alone.

And you don't get real feedback, or you cannot grow much just from client work, because most clients would just say, "Oh, that's beautiful." And you might not even want it to be beautiful. You want it to be helpful. Getting constructive feedback, honest, constructive feedback from peers, it's something that can really help you step up your work.

MR: That's great. I like that.

FSB: And finally, more maybe technical tip for graphic recording, prepare your titles ahead. Your title, for me, is one of the most important things in your graphic recording. Is the one thing that should not—maybe also with logos and maybe your signature, but the titles is the one thing that should not be done while other people are speaking. You should put thought into it. Say, what do I wanna communicate with this title?

Because it's probably gonna be the largest font on your paper, and when people enter the room, they're gonna see that as the first thing. And you want them to keep looking at it and not to just say, "Oh, what is it? Yeah, no, not interested." And turn their head away, because then—so really use your title to hook the attention of the public and to really give the framing of the meaning of your recording.

The other controversial tip, I may have an extra one. I know that there's some visual practitioner that might crucify me for saying that, but use Post-it. At least I'm very keen on the truthfulness of the information, of the accuracy that there's no points really missed. That all the essential points are on the recording. And you're always a bit a delay in recording compared to somebody speaking.

So, Post-it have been a lifesaver for me. Just pick it up, put them in order. Because it even allows you a further selection level. Once you have four or five Post-it, it's like, yeah, maybe not all of that is necessary. Or, oh, wow, look, this is the flow that I need to follow. So, I dunno, I think the Post-it are a little bit of a secret weapon to have complete and relevant graphic recordings.

MR: In some ways, that's like a buffer capture, right? So, you're trying to capture things quickly. It doesn't have to be beautiful, but you can capture that idea. I talk about that in Sketchnoting. I call that putting a stake in the ground. If you're working on a page, like maybe you start the section and then you just guess how much space it will take.

Could use a Post-it note there, I suppose too. A little one and put it in, but basically leave the space and come back to it right in, just enough so you can fill it. I like that. Even if it's controversial. I think it's just—it's funny, people will come to me and say, "Well, this isn't Sketchnote." It's like, why not?

Using references, using Post-It notes, your goal is to communicate ideas and get those ideas captured. How you do it, I don't care. If it doesn't look beautiful or it's not sanctioned or whatever, who cares. The goal is not for me to do it exactly as someone else told me to. The goal is, if you can come up with a way to deliver that message, then you win.

That should be really the ultimate goal is to, like you said, not people looking at it. Oh, I don't care about it, or that it looks beautiful, but does it capture what we're talking about? Does it move us forward? Does it help us to remember so that we don't forget what we talked about, and then it pushes us ahead? That's really the goal of all the stuff we're doing, right? We're communicating visual ideas.

FSB: Yeah. The bottom line is does it help? Am I doing work that is helpful? I'm usually paid for it, so I want to give the maximum added value to my client, and I guess that whatever means help you to capture the most and to be the most helpful to your client, that should be used.

MR: Yeah. I agree. So, I'm very pragmatic, I guess is the right word. So, if it works for you, then you should go with it.

FSB: Yeah. And I think similarly, another thing I've been reading in a lot of books is about, you know, you put down the pen, the moment the person stop speaking. And I feel like you can do that, but I don't think it helps in really having a complete and helpful recording because maybe, you know, the last session, they're like, "Hey, let's collect all the next step. Let's have a quick popcorn brainstorming session."

And I'm gonna come up with a lot of information, which might all be relevant, and you still wanna take the time to actually write it down completely and maybe take 15, 20, 30 minutes longer after the end, just communicate it clearly to the client before. If that helps, then why not also take a little bit of time longer, and I'm not saying then finishing at home in the next few days.

No. It just take a little slot of time afterwards that agreed upon beforehand with the client to actually get the time to finish thing and not just lock down something if it's something very relevant, you want to give it the space that it deserves.

MR: When I do sketchnotes, I try to do most of the work in the moment, but I always reserve at least 15 minutes to look for typos and make sure that things make sense. If I did that staking technique where I started to capture and I didn't finish, to make sure I fill it in, right? So, to plan in a little bit of time at the end, I would think is a normal process for graphic recording too, right?

Just to check your work, make sure that things are, you know, oh, I need to cross that T or dot that I, that's something that I'll get caught with sometimes. So, I think it's important to build in not just the minute you stop, you're done. Well, you can come back and fix things, or. I would think that that's a pretty standard thing.

FSB: Absolutely. Yeah.

MR: I would hope so. Anyway. Well, Filippo, this has been so great. Tell us how we can reach you. Where do you hang out if we wanna reach you on social media or a website, or what would be the best way to reach out to you if we wanna get in touch and connect?

FSB: Sure. Well, you can visit my website www.sketchysolutions.ch. You can follow me for example, on Instagram or Facebook as well, Sketchy Solutions. Or add me on LinkedIn. I'm quite active on LinkedIn. It's Filippo Buzzini. I will send you all the links.

MR: Yeah. We'll have show notes, everybody, for everything we talk about. It's one of the things we like to do here is have good reference, so you can go check things out. So, thank you so much. It's so great to meet you. Really, I'm so happy to see the work you're doing in Switzerland, and every time I discover somebody new, it's exciting to see that the work that we do is happening all over the world. That's really exciting to me. So, thank you for the work you do. I so appreciate that you're willing to be who you are and you're not afraid of it. That's such a good thing to see.

FSB: Well, and thank you so much, Mike for helping so many of us start and putting us in the right direction and keep inspiring us. But it's really a big honor to be interviewed by you and to be able to chat in general, like, wow. If I would've told that to the first-year graphic recording, Sketchy, I would never have believed to say that I would be sharing a Zoom call and having a chat with the Mike Rohde.

MR: Thank you so much. It's really an honor. Thanks so much. Well, everyone, it's another episode of the "Sketchnote Army Podcast." Until next episode, this is Mike. Talk to you soon.