acan related that when i run these programmes or help design these programmes, and so i don't run them, but i help design a lot of these programmes. One day i met this gang leader and standing, you know, we jumped out of the car with one of these outreach workers beause we're tracking down somebody else for the programme,. And the gang the leader happened to be there. I'm always curious at, likewha is it? What's their narrative for convincing themselves that what they do is the right thing? ' So he told me: "I'm just trying o we're just trying to keep busy" He was talking in front of an ice cream and no

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