Did Hegseth see survivors? 'Fog of war' defence

In Trump’s last cabinet meeting of the year, we hear the US Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth - under pressure over possible war crimes in the Carribean Sea - give his fullest explanation yet over what he knew, and when. Citing the “fog of war” in a chaotic situation, Hegseth said he “did not personally see survivors” after a deadly strike on an alleged drug boat in the Carribean, amid concerns that US forces may have violated laws governing armed conflict.

Sarah, Anthony and Justin unpack Hegseth’s explanation, and where it leaves Trump’s ongoing dispute with the Venezuelan president, Nicolas Maduro.

We also hear Trump’s tirade against Somalian immigrants and why he doesn’t want them in the United States, telling reporters they are “garbage” who should go back to where they came from and that “their country is no good for a reason”. Americast looks at the reasons behind Trump's outburst, and how immigration authorities will now be targeting Minnesota’s large Somali community.

And - did Trump fall asleep during Tuesday's cabinet meeting?

HOSTS: • Justin Webb, Radio 4 presenter • Sarah Smith, North America Editor • Anthony Zurcher, North America Correspondent

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This episode was made by George Dabby and Grace Reeve. The technical producer was Dafydd Rees. The series producer is Purvee Pattni. The senior news editor is Sam Bonham.

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