[PREVIEW] "Do I Tell My Kids I'm On a Weight Loss Drug?"
The Burnt Toast Podcast
Introduction
The hosts discuss their personal views on weight loss and anti-fat bias, share podcast updates, and engage in casual summer conversation.
It's time for your June Indulgence Gospel! Corinne is here and we're celebrating our 100th episode. We've got answers to your questions about Ozempic, dahlias and leggings, plus a lil' hate mail and of course, Butter.
If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon.
If you are not a paid subscriber, you'll only get the first chunk. To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to go paid.
Also, don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!)
Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctosr, or any kind of health care providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.
BUTTER & BOOKS
Virginia's first book
OTHER LINKS
amazing local flower store Parcel
Health at Every Size health sheet for liver conditions
our episode with Christy Harrison
the episode where Mia O'Malley came on
Glennon Doyle, on how the clothes were policing her body
Universal Standard next to naked leggings
I make videos where I eat snacks while I read them
a video with my car full of plants
now to enjoy my 25 cent tomato
Gatorade cucumber lime flavor
Nuun electrolyte tablets
a lovely shot of a bunch of books
CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
Episode 100 Transcript
Virginia
You're listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, anti-fat bias, parenting, and health. I'm Virginia Sole-Smith and I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.
Corinne
And I'm Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run @selltradeplus an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing.
Virginia
It is time for your June Indulgence Gospel! We are going to answer your questions like we do every month. We are going to read a little hate mail—I have a fun one teed up for you. And we are going to celebrate! Because this is the 100th episode of the Burnt Toast podcast.
Corinne
Wooo!
Virginia
That's wild.
Corinne
This is also a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing you'll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber.
Virginia
Corinne, how are you? I'm happy you are here with me on this auspicious occasion.
Corinne
I am so excited that it's the 100th episode! It's fully summer here. It's hot. It's Pride. I am trying to find shorts.
Virginia
Are you finding any? Or are you frustrated in the shorts journey?
Corinne
I'm both finding and frustrated. For some reason I'm feeling like all the shorts I wore last summer I don't like anymore. It's not that they don't fit. I just don't like them anymore.
Virginia
I had a similar reaction. I had the Target linen shorts from last summer.
Corinne
They just haven't held up?
Virginia
No. It's not the highest quality linen, I guess.
Corinne
I do find that sometimes with fast fashion stuff, the next season it's dingy.
Virginia
Yeah. But happy Pride! Are you doing any fun Pride things?
Corinne
I am! I'm going to an ice cream social on Wednesday which I'm very excited about. And I think I might also get a tattoo.
Virginia
Wait. Tell us everything.
Corinne
At Dyke Night.
Virginia
Okay, the mom in me is like, you’re getting a tattoo in a bar? Have you checked it out? Are they reputable?
Corinne
I don't know if you recall, but I got COVID at Dyke Night.
Virginia
I am recalling that, Corinne.
Corinne
So it is like, a disease vector.1
Virginia
Have we just done like a little background search on this tattoo artist? High quality needles?
Corinne
They do seem cool. But yeah, I will wear a mask.
Virginia
I will wear a mask, but I will let you put needles in my body.
Corinne
Yes. So I think it'll be an exciting week!
Virginia
Are you a big tattoo person? Do you have a lot of tattoos?
Corinne
I do. It's funny that you don't know that. I have a fair amount of tattoos. I don't have a ton on my body but I have some on my limbs.
Virginia
Nice. I am the only millennial who doesn't have a tattoo. Because I'm very scared of sharp needles.
Corinne
Well, It's not too late.
Virginia
I know. I've just never had a thought of, that is what I would like. Do you know what the tattoo is going to be?
Corinne
It's a flash event which means that they have pre-drawn stuff. And it's a bunch of weird cute little creatures.
Virginia
This sounds delightful.
Corinne
I’m excited to get a little creature tattoo. How are you doing?
Virginia
I am good. It is it is Pride here as well. It's also high garden season for me. May and June are like the months. So I'm just gardening as much as I can now that the book stuff is calming down. I planted too many dahlia tubers this weekend.
Corinne
Oh my gosh.
Virginia
It's gonna be a whole thing. First of all, I just want to say Corinne is being all cool and getting tattoos and I'm now going to tell you a nerdy gardening story. We are who we are. It's fine.
Corinne
Gardening is very cool.
Virginia
So I failed to successfully overwinter my dahlia tubers is how this story starts. Just so we know how much coolness is involved. I just dumped them in the garage and never packed them up properly. There’s a whole process you have to do. So I killed all my dahlia tubers, and in a panic, because I love dahlias, I ordered a bunch online and ordered way more than I needed. Then that order was delayed infinitely and I thought they weren't coming. So I bought some locally from my amazing local flower store Parcel. I planted all of those and then my online order arrived. So now I have 66 dahlia tubers in my garden. Too many. I was sticking them anywhere.
Corinne
It sounds like it’s going to be awesome though.
Virginia
I don't know. I'm late getting them in the ground. We're having a drought already. We'll see. And it was a ton of work to plant them all. But yes, I'm on a dahlia journey this year.
The most important thing—and everybody who listens to this podcast, please hold me accountable on this. This November when they freeze, please say: Virginia, dig them up and store them properly. Because you have now spent all the money on dahlia tubers and you cannot ever buy them again.
Corinne
It sounds so labor intensive though.
Virginia
It is very labor intensive. But they're not inexpensive. And I have now bought them twice.
Alright, let's do some questions!
We are going to start with a couple of health questions.
Corinne
Yes, here we go.
I have recently been diagnosed with a mild case of fatty liver disease. When talking to my GI, who was more compassionate than I expected, he discussed dietary changes I should make to reverse some of the damage over time and maintain a healthy liver. As the mother of a new baby, I'm strongly incentivized to be as healthy as possible to be around for my kid. As a fat woman with a recently healed relationship with food and a firm anti-diet Intuitive Eating approach to life, I'm struggling to find the balance between “this is a diet” and “this is necessary for my health.” Can you make a recommendation for how sick folks can approach adjusted eating regimens in a way that is both effective and respectful of their journey and their own relationship with food and their bodies?
Virginia
Okay, so I want to say before we get started: We are not doctors. We're not dietitians. You are here for our informed opinions. Standard disclaimer. Also, I am not an expert on fatty liver disease and I did not report that out. So we're not going to talk specifically about what your protocol should be or is this the right thing to be doing.
What I really want to talk about is how this happens with all kinds of health conditions, where you get told you have to cut out a food group or make some diet adjustment in order to deal with a physical health ailment. How do you do that in a way that's supportive and not triggering and not pushing you back into a diet-y place?
Corinne
Yes, that makes sense.
Virginia
So I would first do some research and see how necessary the dietary adjustments are. I think they're often prescribed—and again, I don't know about liver conditions, but they're often prescribed as a knee jerk, one-size-fits-all kind of prescription, without a lot of nuance as to whether it's really necessary for you. The research often isn’t as clear cut as we would like.
So, you might ask your doctor: “Is this dietary change something you would recommend for a thin person with this condition as well? If not, what treatment would you give a thin person?” Just to understand the landscape of are they doing this as a stealth way to prescribe weight loss for you? Or are they doing this because they see a clear-cut relationship between x foods and this condition?
Corinne
I do know that there is a Health at Every Size health sheet for this condition. That might be a good place to start with what does the research say about what helps.
Virginia
Ragen Chastain and everyone who works on those does such an incredible job pulling them together. They have a bunch of health conditions covered so that's a really good starting point, anytime you're getting a diet or weight loss prescription from a doctor to understand, what is the other take?
But okay, let's say that you do have to make the diet adjustment, like it does seem clear that this is the right thing to do. What are your thoughts on how you do that in a non-triggering way?
Corinne
If you decide that you do want to make dietary changes, which I do think is a choice, you could always work with a nutritionist who is aligned with your values around that. If you are someone that struggles with restriction or food stuff, which it sounds like you are, dieting might not be healthy for you. You're kind of balancing—
Virginia
—two health conditions.
Corinne
Yeah.
Virginia
I think it's important to be clear with your doctor if this feels unsafe for you. Let's name that and let's make sure that your doctor is aware they're suggesting something that may be unsafe for you. What supports are they going to put in place? Or what other protocols can they consider that would be safer for you?
I think that can be hard to do for folks who don't have a diagnosed eating disorder. It can be hard to do even for folks with a diagnosed eating disorder because often doctors don't care. And don't ask about it, or they're so focused on this little piece of your health, but they're ignoring the bigger picture. But if you don't have a diagnosed eating disorder, it can be this very vulnerable thing where you feel like you're saying, “But it just makes me sad,” and that that doesn't feel as important. There's this urgency of your liver numbers or your A1C is in jeopardy and we don't have time for your feelings. So I just want to name that your feelings in this really matter. You're not being high maintenance, you're not being fussy. This is actually really hard to do.
Corinne
Yeah, definitely. The other thing that I have found helpful with stuff like this is if your doctor says “don't eat X,” sometimes flipping it to be not, “I can never eat Oreos again,” but to be, “I want to eat more vegetables,” or whatever. So you're thinking of adding rather than restricting.
Virginia
I think that's a super helpful shift to make. I have a child who was on a medically required fat free diet for a period of time. And you lean into making what you can eat as delicious and amazing as possible. And you make sure that you're trying to take an abundance mindset towards it. Not letting it be a stepping stone towards more restriction. Instead it's like, “I'm restricting this one thing, but here's what I can eat. What do I love here that I can eat? How do I get the most delicious and abundant versions of what I can eat in my life?”
Corinne
Yes. Good luck. Let us know how it goes.
Virginia
Alright, you want to read the next one?
Corinne
I've just started using Mounjaro as a way to combat type two diabetes. And I wonder what is a good way to discuss / explain this to my children? Because the reality is I'm using it to lose weight and reducing blood glucose levels is almost more of a side effect. Drugs such as Ozempic and Mounjaro and the like have overwhelmed the media. But how do we discuss a medical intervention like this with children? I don't want it to be a secret, but I also don't want to toxic conversation around size.
Virginia
Okay, free list. That is where we leave you!
If you would like to hear our response to this very complicated question and the whole rest of the episode, you’ll need to go paid.
Whew, I am getting many versions of this question. It's interesting because the media has been so focused on the Hollywood angle of Ozempic, which is people taking it to be skinnier. But there have been all these people quietly saying to me, “Well, I am taking it mostly for my diabetes, but also to lose weight. What do I do?”
And I wanted to have this conversation because I feel like it is important to make space for that experience.
Corinne
It is really tough.
This is kind of a sidebar, but when is the last time the media was so obsessed with a medication? I just feel like it's like inescapable right now!
Virginia
I mean, I can tell you at least one of the last times was when Orlistat went over the counter and became Alli. Because that's when I was in women’s magazines covering weight loss drugs and we wrote quite a lot about how great it was that you could get a weight loss drug over the counter.
Corinne
I haven't even heard of that.
Virginia
Well, it was like 2003.
Corinne
I was I in high school.
Virginia
You're a baby! You weren’t in high school, you’re not that much younger than me!
Corinne
Yeah, I graduated from high school in 2004.
Virginia
Well, you are an infant.
Corinne
You were covering weight loss drugs while I was merely graduating high school.
Virginia
It was a whole big thing and definitely all-consuming for a minute. Then we found out that it gives you a really oily poops and it turns out an increased urgency to shit your pants. So it was a flash in the pan. I am waiting for the Ozempic backlash.
So here's the thing: It is a great diabetes drug. And I think if you were just taking it to manage your diabetes, there’s a super straightforward conversation you have with your kids where you say, “I am taking this to manage my diabetes. That's really important for my health and wellbeing. It is being talked about as a weight loss drug, but that is not what I'm doing it for.” I wish more of the conversation was about its purpose as a diabetes medication because folks who need it for diabetes can't even access it in some places because the weight loss stuff has gotten so loud.
But that's not what this person is asking. Because she's saying that the blood glucose is a side effect.
Corinne
My response to this was just like, why do you need to talk to your kids about the fact that you're excited about weight loss? Like, is that something that they need to know?
Virginia
That's interesting.
Corinne
But I'm also not a parent.
Virginia
Well, I guess the thing is, whether you speak to it or not—your kids probably know you're excited about weight loss. Because if you're losing weight on the drug, they're going to be aware of that. And if you're getting positive feedback for that weight loss, which you probably are, they're going to be aware of that. Kids are just exquisitely sensitive to how we interact with our bodies, so they're going to know if that's a thing.
I do think it's really important to have some ground rules for yourself that you don't demonize your bigger body or anybody else’s bigger body. That you don't talk negatively about your body in front of your kids. I would also ask, big picture: What are you doing to celebrate fat people, as a family? In the art on your walls? In the books you read, in the TV shows you watch? Are you celebrating and supporting fat people in general? Are you naming anti-fat bias and calling it out as harmful when you encounter it?
Corinne
It seems like a good opportunity to have a conversation about the systemic reasons that people might want to lose weight.
Virginia
Your individual choices to lose weight or not lose weight and how that's tangled up in your health—all of that is the part I'm the least interested in. I want to know, what are you doing on anti fat-bias in general? What are you doing to make your home a safe space for all bodies? And I do think it's valid to ask, if I am pursuing intentional weight loss, is my home a safe space for all bodies? Because if your kids are fat, maybe that's going to feel unsafe to them.
But I do think we are allowed to have our personal struggles, and we can still be committed to the larger cause. I'm more interested in how you're showing up in the world on these issues than I am in your own personal choices. And it's super complicated if you have been told this feels very necessary for you to do in some way. I'm not here to talk you out of that. I'm just here to say yeah, okay, but what are you doing for fat people?
Corinne
And if it feels necessary for accessibility stuff, I think that's really valid.
Virginia
I mean, so many fat folks are doing Ozempic or getting weight loss surgery, and it's not an aesthetic decision for them. It’s because it's necessary in order to access other healthcare they need.
Corinne
I also think if it's possible, it might be nice to not be celebrating the weight loss. Not making it into a moral celebration that you lost weight because you're a good person or you did something right.
Virginia
That's a great point. Make sure you're limiting it to “this felt necessary to improve my health.” Or, “this felt necessary for accessibility reasons.” Stick to the clear, practical reasons that this felt like the right choice for you.
She doesn't say how old her kids are, but I'm thinking about my nine year old. If this was something going on in our house, if I got positive feedback for weight loss, I would name for her why that was problematic. Even if I said thank you to the person for the compliment in the moment, because sometimes that's awkward, I would later say something like, “The way so-and-so talked about how my body is changing, that is really a sign of how much we value certain bodies and that's really problematic. I just want you to know that how your body changes has no bearing on your value as a person.” And invite them to talk about what they think when they hear those kinds of comments.
Corinne
This probably isn't the first time this stuff has come up. Maybe it's the first time the medication has come up. But if you're excited about weight loss, your kids probably know that.
Virginia
Maybe think about how have you talked about this in the past? And do you need talk about what you're unlearning or how your thinking has changed.
Alright, the next one, this person writes:
I'm trying to work on my relationship with food and address some functional GI issues, but the two books I've read so far, The Mind Gut Connection and Trust Your Gut, are full of anti-fat bias. Do you know of any other resources?
Corinne
Gut stuff is so complicated. It just feels like it's like one of those topics right now that is really huge in the wellness world. And yeah, there is a lot of anti-fat bias there.
Virginia
It's pretty much always prescribed elimination diet, prescribed restriction is the treatment protocol. And this is an area I've looked into a little bit and there is very little evidence to support elimination diet protocols being helpful, particularly if it's something you're experimenting with on your own or with the help of one of these books, which I did just Google and yeah, they're both filled with diet culture, anti-fat bias is very apparent.
So I think it is tricky because there's a lot of people pushing stuff that's not evidence based but they sort of glom it onto like one little study. There's a lot of pseudoscience in the way this gets talked about.
I would definitely recommend, if you haven't already, listen back to our episode with Christy Harrison on her new book The Wellness Trap. Definitely get The Wellness Trap or check it out from your library because she goes into a lot of detail about the myths and misconceptions and misinformation that circulates about GI conditions in wellness culture. She doesn't drill so much into here's what to do for a specific condition. But I think it will just be helpful for grounding you as you start to navigate what you want to do with all of these things.
The other thing to know is, there's a very high, almost like a complete Venn diagram overlap between GI issues and disordered eating or eating disorders. So, so often they prescribe some kind of elimination diet to treat your GI issue, when in fact restriction is an underlying cause of, or a major contributing factor to, your GI issue. More restriction is not going to solve it.
Corinne
You actually need the opposite.
Virginia
You need to eat and you're not eating enough food. You might be thinking no, no, no I eat too much, way too much food because that's often the way people feel when they're stuck in a restrict or restrict/binge cycle. But it's really worth looking into that.
Two other resources I would check out Marci Evans, who is a great anti-diet, fat positive dietitian based in Boston, who specializes in GI issues and disordered eating. And Emily Fonnesbeck, who I believe is in Utah and has a similar focus. I actually interviewed her for my first book about her experience going down that wellness culture rabbit hole of trying to solve her own GI issues through elimination diets, and how that ended up in orthorexia, and coming back out of it. They both have great Instagrams and websites with lots of good information.
Corinne
That's awesome. Those are good resources.
Virginia
Alright. I think that wraps up our health segment.
I call this next segment just Existing in Diet Culture. It's a lot sometimes.
Corinne
So real. Okay, let me read the next one.
Do you have any coping strategies when it feels hard to be okay with my body? It comes in waves.
Virginia
I think it's good that this person is noticing that it comes in waves. Because if you can notice that when you're in the wave, you can maybe also remember that it's not going to last forever.
Corinne
Good point.
Virginia
And that you're riding a wave right now. You're not drowning.
Corinne
My thought was to sort of fight against that feeling by doing something that feels good in your body, like, I don't know. It could that could be some kind of physical activity like walking or swimming or like laying on the couch, eating food.
Virginia
Furry blankets are helpful.
Corinne
Smelling smells. And I would also say, if it's something that comes up for you a lot, make a list of what helps you feel better in the moment. And you can refer to it when you're like having one of those waves.
Virginia
That’s a nice idea. I've said this before, but I'll say it again: Look underneath the body feelings, to figure out what's driving the body feelings. Because often this is where I go when my social anxiety is high. So what is really going on? If you're feeling destabilized in a relationship, this may be where you go, to blame your body or blame yourself. So many different things.
Corinne
I always remember the episode where Mia O'Malley came on and she was like: Is your life comfortable for your body? Are you feeling this way because your pants don't fit or your chair is too small?
Virginia
That is such a great point. What about your physical environment or your clothes or whatever needs to change to support your body as it is versus you feeling like I don't fit or I need to change.
I think I'm like, pretty broken up with skinny jeans.
Corinne
Oh, wait, this is breaking news. This is crazy. We might need a new jeans science. Are you breaking up with jeans?
Virginia
I don't know. I don't know? It's complicated. My relationship status with jeans is “it's complicated.” But I'm wearing my straight leg jeans right now and I've been wearing them more. I like the style of straight leg jeans but they tend to be a little bit cropped and then in the winter it's really hard in the Northeast because like what do you do with socks and boots? But it's summer now so when I'm wearing jeans, it makes sense to wear my cropped jeans. And I've just been having this realization of, they are just so much more comfortable than my skinny jeans in just all the ways and what a gift that is to my body to be comfortable in my pants.
I mean, my other solution on this is I've been living in leggings when it was colder. I’m just like so comfy in leggings. But it was interesting to actually pull out a pair of jeans and not be tortured by them and be like, oh, right. Some of that was a choice of just being wedded to a style that did not feel good.
Corinne
I'm very curious where these straight or wide leg jeans came from.
Virginia
They are the Gap ones, they're the same ones from Jeans Science. I have not bought new jeans. I have bought all the jeans
Corinne
That's very amazing.
Virginia
I actually did just go on gap.com to see if I could get a second pair because I do like them so much. And they're sold out of my size right now. [EDIT: They were when we recorded, but have restocked, so this fluctuates!]
And, you know, Gap is not super inclusive. I'm wearing the 34 it only goes up to 35. Or maybe I'm in the 35. They are not a solution, or a pair of jeans I want to shout from the rooftops.
But to the larger point of this person's question, something that's been helping with my feelings in my body is being really comfortable in my clothes.
Corinne
Yeah, totally. That was a big revelation of Glennon Doyle, where she talks about how the clothes were policing her body.
Virginia
It's nice not to be policed. So I think looking for small things like that and then just knowing that you're gonna ride this wave. It's going to get better. Then you'll ride another wave. Maybe each week gets a little easier, you know?
Corinne
Yeah, it will come and go.
Virginia
Alright, this person writes:
I am struggling with how to respond to a very small friend who is struggling with the fact that she's gained weight, unnoticeable to me, due to a more demanding job. I am a new mom of a nine month old whose body has gone up in size since giving birth and working really hard on dismantling my own anti-fat bias, with help from you and Aubrey Gordon, and accepting my new size without shame. How do I balance being a supportive friend while also setting boundaries that protect the self-acceptance I have been working so hard on?
Virginia
This comes up a lot. What do I do with my friends?
Corinne
I feel like you have to talk to your friends.
Virginia
You do. You have to let them know that this is harmful for you, which is vulnerable, but is also kind of the most respectful way to do it. They should know and it shouldn't be your work to do but they may not understand the degree to which they're harming you.
Corinne
You can start the conversation from a place of empathy. “Changes are hard, no matter what kind of changes they are. Especially when it's your body. And, what you're saying is really bothering me.”
Virginia
Yeah, “This is really bumming me out.” Also, you've probably done some of this reframing already because I'm sure you're a supportive friend, but when people's bodies change related to a clear life circumstance, like more demanding job, pandemic lockdown…
Corinne
Having a baby.
Virginia
All of the things. I just wish we, as a culture, could just let that stand. Like, that is fine. That is your body responding to a set of circumstances that you didn't have a lot of control over and you don't have control over how your body's responding to it. And to put all your energy into “my body has changed and that is a failure and I need to fight to get it back” instead of “my body has changed because I have a very demanding job or I just had a baby or I'm surviving” or whatever million reasons. And just noticing that and like letting it be.
I mean, this goes all the way back to the messages we give kids in childhood. This is what I wrote about in Fat Talk, reframing the puberty narrative. From the get go we frame to kids that changes in your body are a problem to be solved, and a thing to be dreaded and pushed off as long as possible. Instead of saying, yeah, it's totally normal. Your body is going to change constantly throughout your life, and you're still going to be you, and your value is not going to change.
Corinne
I think that's a really good point and something that people forget.
Virginia
It is not your job to explain that to your friend who is asking for a lot of emotional labor from you that you don't need to give, but just something to hold on to for yourself.
Corinne
Good luck.
Next one:
The subject of leggings has snuck its way into many of your recent newsletters, but I'm looking for a bit more info. I've never been into sports and when I did work out I was more of a sweatpants and t-shirt kind of gal. About a year ago, I took up yoga and found a few leggings that worked well for me: Athleta and Girlfriend Collective.
However, this week I started roller derby and what works for bending and stretching does not work for running, jumping, and moving fast. I'm about a size 20 with a considerable belly and large thighs, but a fairly defined waist above my belly. Waistbands just love to roll under the belly when I move. What else is out there? I am of somewhat modest means but I do seem to really luck out when looking at used clothes. Do you have advice for a newly active person who needs to expand her workout wardrobe?
Virginia
First, I love that she noticed how often leggings creep into this newsletter.
Corinne
That was really funny. Because also, we just mentioned leggings.
Virginia
I mean, it's a favorite topic, recurring theme, because all the jeans are bad. I am not a roller derby-ist, roller derby-er? I don't know what your preferred nomenclature is. I don't like to move fast or run or so I don't know. I mean, the brands she mentioned are the brands I wear. Girlfriend Collective or Universal Standard. I do wonder about Universal Standard because the waistband is very high. It comes like up to my bra, basically. I really don't have rolling down issues with that. I would maybe try that. But I do know what she's talking about just from hiking. Like walking vigorously, leggings that are good for yoga do not always translate to walking. It's so weird. Why are pants so bad?
Corinne
I was gonna recommend the Universal Standard next to naked leggings. I have a very long torso and they also come up to my bra. They're pretty thin. I think they would be good for this.
Virginia
Yeah, they are very light weight. Whereas Girlfriend Collective are so thick. I feel like that's part of what makes them possibly not work so well for her for running. Because the thickness, they start to drag on you a little. Like the time I wore a wetsuit in the water and realized I wanted to die.
Corinne
Universal standard also has these leggings, Roya leggings, that are more cotton-y.
Virginia
Oh, I don't think I've tried those.
Corinne
They have an elastic band waist, so I feel like those could also work. But I don't know if the cotton-y thing would be okay for roller derb-ing.
Virginia
Yeah, that's a good question.
Corinne
My other leggings that I like are Superfit Hero but you might have the same problem with them.
Virginia
It's the same thicker fabric right?
Corinne
They are the same, all one piece.
Virginia
Wetsuit style leggings.
Corinne
But I do think the fit is really good on those.
Virginia
So that's good. It's also so body specific.
Corinne
I know. And I feel like this may be not my body shape.
Virginia
I mean, defined waist? She lost me.
Corinne
Same.
Virginia
We are not the best people to ask this. But we have had lots of other legging recs come in from Burnt Toasties, so drop them in the comments. And hopefully this person will check that out and get more advice, because I know there are a lot of other legging options out there besides our go-tos.
Corinne
But I would say yeah, try the Universal Standard’s Next To Nake. I would also maybe try size down because I feel like they may be run a little bit big.
Virginia
Okay, good. Alright. This person just wrote:
How do you deal with the haters? Do you have any practices for mentally blocking them out?
It's a very sweet question. Well, I make videos where I eat snacks while I read them. That's a big one.
Corinne
Do you find yourself bothered?
Virginia
When I was in the first few weeks of the book launch, when it got really loud, like it was like constant. I was feeling bombarded, feeling like I couldn't open my inbox. Otherwise no. When it's now down to the more usual volume of a few per week. I mostly just read, delete, move on. Don't even think about it again.
But everyone's allowed to respond to that in their own way. It's okay, if it's upsetting you. I'm not saying that's the way you have to respond. The comments are horrible. You're allowed to be upset by horrible comments.
But I think for me, it helps to have this community where I feel like there's a lot of people on the same page and so one random dude finding my Instagram DMs, his opinion means less than nothing. And because they're so repetitive in the themes they hit when they get mad at me that I've already worked through my like feelings so I'm not thrown by it.
I more get thrown if someone critiques something that I have also really like wondered about. Like if someone were to critique something about my writing I would be like, you're right. You've caught the annoying phrases I'm always trying to get rid of or just like a more of a literary critique. That, I think, I could really walk around with and struggle, but the stuff where it's like about what I report on, I'm like, no, I already have dealt with that enough.
Corinne
That makes sense.
Virginia
Do you ever get haters on @selltradeplus? Is that a safe community?
Corinne
Honestly, no. But I do live in fear of it happening. I feel like I don't share a ton of personal stuff on there.
Virginia
I just worry because it's clearly a community of lovely fat people, that people would come be assholes.
Corinne
Yeah, I definitely felt a little disturbed by the Fox News stuff that was happening to you. I was just like, oh my God. No.
Virginia
Yeah that was depressing,
Corinne
Hopefully that will never happen to me. Hopefully, it will never happen to anyone ever again.
Virginia
Unfortunately, it will absolutely happen again. But that was a very specific thing. I just don't want to give them more power than they are already desperately trying to claw at from their mother’s basements.
Corinne
Okay, next one:
How did you stop / postpone / continue your old job and write your first book?
Virginia
I'm confused by this question because I didn't stop a job. I don't know if they saw something and misunderstood. So I've been a full-time freelance writer since 2005. So I was a magazine editor for a few years and then went full-time freelance in 2005. I got my first book deal in 2016. And that book was published in 2018. So I was continuing to freelance while I was writing that book.
I did scale back the types of assignments I took. At that point, I was doing a lot of longform narrative features and more investigative type features which are themselves kind of like mini book projects. They're really all consuming for a few months. So, I knew I couldn't do those and write the book. So I was doing a different mix of assignments, but I did keep writing freelance assignments and somehow wrote the book and was also pregnant that year. So it was a big year. I don't recommend it.
Then for the second book—because it also occurred to me, maybe this person doesn't know Fat Talk is my second book? For the second book, I was writing that while going all in on Burnt Toast being my full-time job. So what was bad about that was I was essentially launching a new business while writing a book. But what was better about that was I had more total control over the schedule than when I was freelancing for lots of different editors and the two worlds are very enmeshed. And a lot of the research I was doing for the book was giving me content for the newsletter and vice versa. So I was able to do both projects simultaneously. But I will say it sure is nice that now that I'm coming out of book launch season only doing the newsletter and I have just one job for a while. Yeah, don't hate that.
Corinne
It seems like the answer is, it's really hard.
Virginia
If this is a writer who's asking for advice, I suppose I should say something useful. If this is something you're thinking about doing: If you get a big enough advance then leaving a job in order to focus on the book may be an option. But most of the time, that's not the case, especially with a first book. So it’s about getting clear on when you can find blocks of time. Like I did a lot of the first book writing from 6 to 7am in the morning before my daughter woke up and our like, day started. I would get like a ton of work done then and then during the day be doing my day job of freelancing. So, you know, it's just like looking for those chunks, but it's a lot. It’s super hard.
Corinne
Okay. Here's a personal question:
How much do you spend on gardening? Just having plants in an apartment is not cheap.
Virginia
It's not cheap! I'm not going to like give a number because I don't think that would be good for us. For me, personally, I don't believe in numbers. I don't weigh myself. So I don't put numbers on things like plants and the amount of joy they can bring us. Why would I? Why would I count the joy that the garden brings me? Why would I quantify it?
Corinne
No need to quantify it. But okay, this is making me have a question, which is like, do you have a gardening budget?
Virginia
Okay, so we need to distinguish between, like, there are some big projects we have done on our yard that I would say are akin to having done like a home renovation. And that was a separate budget.
Corinne
Like hardscaping type of things?
Virginia
Yeah, like we put in a patio and we added a bunch of trees, which are expensive because you're putting big things. So that's like, a separate conversation. I'm not going to get into that. All I'm going to say is, you're investing in the value of your home. And also, gardens are a money pit. For sure.
But what I think this person may be talking about this, like when I post a video with my car full of plants, which, like, yeah, it was my birthday. And my book had hit the New York Times bestseller list, so I got a lot of plants. And good for me. That's all I'm going to say.
As previously referenced in this episode, I recently bought double the number of dahlia tubers I needed. This is not an area of my life, where I believe in restriction. It is a big source of my joy. And, you know, in our family budget, I have a certain amount of discretionary spending money, both me and my husband get a chunk of do-whatever-you-want-with money every month, and pretty much all mine goes on plants.
Corinne
Oh my God, that is so funny.
Virginia
In the gardens months, yeah. And all I can say is it brings me so much joy. I think there are no real budget strategies because the other thing is, like, it's not just the plants but also like, I need a new garden hose because this one cracked. Like, there's so much equipment. There's a great meme I've seen going around that's like listing all of like the costs of the raised beds and the dirt and the this and that. And then it's like, now to enjoy my 25 cent tomato. There's no math where growing your own food or growing your own plants is going to be cheaper than not doing that.
And this is why I don't worry about growing vegetables, because I know it wouldn't be saving us any money and it doesn't bring me as much joy. So I'll just buy my vegetables from the grocery store. It's fine.
But um, so number one, only buy as many dahlia tubers as you need. That's one budget strategy I have for you. Also, starting more things from seeds can be cheaper. I tend to forget to do that, but it's a goal of mine. These are all the things I would do if I could get my act together.
I don't know, I mean, you're a gardener, too. What are your thoughts?
Corinne
Yeah, I'm a very low key gardener. And I was going to say, I'm someone who does have a bunch of houseplants and I have spent almost no money on them.
Virginia
HOW.
Corinne
I think I bought some pots so they would kind of match. Yeah, but I don't really care about houseplants so I'm not going to spend money on them. But at my old job, people used to bring in cuttings so I would take cuttings. I also know a lot of cities will have seed exchanges or seed libraries where you can go and get seeds for free. And also there's also a lot of plant swap groups now. I'm pretty sure there's an Albuquerque plant swap on either Reddit or Facebook where people will like trade cuttings.
Virginia
Well, I definitely need to get in on that.
Corinne
So there are definitely ways to get plants for low cost. I will say there's certain plants that I feel like people are constantly giving away because it's so annoying how fast they grow. Like, please do not give me that plant because I can't deal with how fast it grows.
Virginia
Wait which plants?
Corinne
I feel like it's like pothos and spider plants. Mother of thousands or whatever.
Virginia
Oh God, mother of thousands. We've talked about that.
Corinne
Yes, I threw mine away because I was like, stop.
Virginia
I threw mine away, too, and it's still popping up in the other pot. I can't get rid of it. Truly a nightmare.
This is reminding me I do have a truly absurd number of hostas in my garden and a gardener friend of mine has an old Victorian and someone planted hostas a million years ago. So there were so many hostas and she didn't want them so I went and dug up all her hostas and then divided them. So what was like 100 hostas became like 300 hostas, I'm not even kidding. Because hostas, you can just divide and divide.
This year my asters are going nuts, so I was able to call her and be like, come pick up as many asters as you want because you gave me hostas. And so that's lovely. And dividing over time will give you more of everything. So if you can't buy a lot of plants in the first year, you can build up towards that. Then like they get bigger and then you can divide them, but it just requires so much patience.
Corinne
Yeah, it's true. If you have specific plants you want in your apartment, you might not be able to get them for free or cheap. But yeah, check Facebook marketplace.
Virginia
Listen to Corinne, she's got great tips.
Corinne
Make friends with other people who like plants and give them away all the time.
Virginia
It's true, if you come to my house, you might be leaving with one. And I do encourage people to take cuttings of my house plants, like my polka dot begonias. I've given a lot of cuttings.
Corinne
Yeah, or like a probably illegal strategy of walking through the succulent section of a plant store and picking up the fallen leaves.
Virginia
Oh, the fallen leaves. I thought you were going to say breaking off a little piece.
Corinne
No, no, I would never suggest that. That sounds illegal. However, if they have fallen and you pick them up, you’re basically just helping them clean.
Virginia
That's really good. With talking about this, though, is I'm feeling a lot better about the money I have spent because I'm thinking about how all of the plants I have are actually many more plants. So my cost per plant is going down as we discuss because I'll just keep dividing things and making more plants. So yeah, so I'm really actually quite a budget garden chopper and I'm glad we had this talk. Okay. Next question!
Corinne
Also plant-related.
Plants for shade gardening? And can we talk about Solomon’s Seal?
I do not know what Solomon’s Seal is.
Virginia
Oh, Solomon’s Seal. This is someone from Instagram because I posted pictures of my Solomon’s Seal. It's a really lovely native, although I think I don't have the native ones. I have a variegated one. Kind of like a fern, it arcs. It’s like an arc-ing plant with leaves and it has little flowers to hang off it in the spring. And it's lovely in shade gardens because it looks like waves like it like it's really pretty. I will post some pictures from my garden of my Solomon’s Seal.
The big question about shade gardens is do you have dry shade or moist shade? Because most of the good shade plants are moist shade plants because they want to grow along streams in the woodlands or like in a rain forest. And you know, and I live on a very rocky mountain with a lot of big oak trees that take up all of the root space in my garden. So I have a lot of very dry shade, which is I would say the hardest gardening condition and the reason I have to buy so many plants because it takes a long time for my beds to fill in. But some stuff that's working for me is the Solomon Seal for sure.
Brunnera is another one that has like really pretty silvery green sort of swirly leaves and little blue flowers in the spring.
Pulmonaria which has super cute polka dot leaves and little pink flowers in the spring. And that gets big and you can divide that a lot.
And what else do I really love in my shade garden? My favorite shrub in my shade garden is the oak leaf hydrangea which is really beautiful.
Do you have shade gardens in New Mexico? Is there shade in New Mexico?
Corinne
No. I’m going to say no. There is neither shade nor wet. It's like finding plants that can survive full insane sun. And I mean, I think most people who have gardens here have irrigation which I am contemplating having put in, so we'll see.
Do you have good shade gardening resource recommendations? Is there somewhere you look for info about that stuff?
Virginia
So my favorite garden blogger is Margaret Roach who blogs as A Way to Garden and she also has a podcast. She regularly has on Ken Druse who is a garden writer who has written I think at least one if not several books about shade gardening. I've gotten a lot of great tips from both of them.
And I should also say Anne Helen Petersen (now writing Garden Study!) and I text regularly. She has both sun and shade, more sun than me, plus she is in zone 8.
Corinne
That's funny, I feel like I'm like zone 8.
Virginia
There are clearly a very different zone 8s. It's New Mexico and Washington State. Not the same zone, but yeah, I'm over here in zone 5, where it's cold forever. So it's rough. But yeah, AHP and I text a lot about shade plants and she was just posting a bunch of stuff in her Instagram stories which will not be up by the time this runs. But our running joke is that we are going to, in our retirement, start a gardening blog. So stay tuned.
Corinne
I love that idea.
Virginia
We both do not actually have time for it, but yeah. May have a name. May have working title.
Corinne
My God, amazing.
(Hate) Mail Corner
Virginia
Alright, I thought we could add on a fun little read some hate mail because you guys liked when we did that in May. So I'm going to pull up this delightful one. This is just a quick little comment that came up on Twitter.
Corinne
Here we go. I'm opening it. Oh, I don't know want to read this. Okay, here we go.
Obnoxious glasses? Check.
Greasy thin hair? Check.
Porcine body? Check.
This woman is a Democrat.
Wait. Okay, I just have to say, what photo did this person see because you do not have greasy thin hair. I've seen you on Zoom a lot and you have luscious thick beautiful hair.
Virginia
Thank you. I really needed that. The comments don't live in my head but with this one, I was like, I'm sorry what? That is just wrong.
Corinne
Who are you talking about? And also your glasses are not obnoxious?
Virginia
No. My glasses are obviously amazing. This person is wrong
Corinne
They are extremely cool.
Virginia
But I loved that the first time I got seriously offended I was like, “I don’t have thin greasy hair.” Which like, I’m not hair-shaming people. All hair is good hair.
Corinne
But no one who has seen your hair would describe it that way.
Virginia
Anyone who has to deal with my eyebrows can confirm that thin hair is not a struggle in my life.
Corinne
Ooh, jealous, honestly.
Virginia
Lack of hair has not been a problem.
Corinne
Wow. Well, I guess I know what a Democrat looks like now.
Virginia
I mean, and what he doesn't even know is the Democrats are often not liberal enough for me. Actually pretty annoyed with them a lot of the time. But okay.
Corinne
Tell him that.
Butter
Virginia
That was just a little fun hate mail for us. Now let's do some butter.
Corinne
Okay, so as discussed it is summer. It is very hot. I'm sweating so much, because also I'm spending so much time in the gym right now. So one thing that I'm really enjoying and is making my life much more livable is electrolytes. So I want to recommend two different electrolyte delivery vehicles. The first one is Gatorade.
Virginia
Nice.
Corinne
But specifically the cucumber lime flavor. That's the only flavor of Gatorade. The only flavor anyone should be drinking. And the other thing that I'm really enjoying is these Nuun electrolyte tablets. They're a little easier to carry around than Gatorade. And they have more interesting flavors like cherry limeade. And some of them have caffeine which also is really fun.
Virginia
And you really do like the taste?
Corinne
I do like the taste. I mean, it's not like delicious but it's drinkable. And I do like the results of drinking electrolytes. I just find that I feel better.
Virginia
It's so important, especially in the heat. How is the weightlifting? How's it going?
Corinne
It's going good. Feeling a little stressed about the meet, which will be done by the next time we record.
Virginia
So we're gonna get a full report. I can't wait. That's very exciting. Well, I'm glad you're taking care of yourself on this journey.
Corinne
What’s your butter?
Virginia
My butter, which I have to give credit to Kim Baldwin who is on Instagram as @theblondemule and also theblondemule.com and she blogs a lot at Joy the Baker. Anyway, she posted a lovely shot of a bunch of books, including Fat Talk, which is how I saw this. They were all on a cart, a little cart. And it turns out, this is her TBR cart—you may know TBR stands for to be read. So all the books that she's waiting to read, she has organized on a cart. And I was like, this is genius because I get sent so many books because of my work and blurbing people’s books or interviewing people for the podcast. And I also purchase a lot of books—when I said I spent all my money on plants, that was false. I also buy a lot of books.
So the nightstand is not going to cut it for my TBR pile. The nightstand would be up to the ceiling. So I now have this little cart. It's from Target, it was $40. And I've got all my TBRs organized by podcast guests and fiction. It's making me so happy.
Corinne
That's so cool. That's a great idea.
Virginia
Because you don't want to shelve them on your bookshelves because then you'll forget if they're in the archives. You want them where you’re going to remember that this is what I'm reading. And just having them laying around was not a good system.
Corinne
I love that idea. I like that a cart is movable.
Virginia
I have it in my office, but you could totally put it in a bedroom. I also got one for my kids art supplies which tend to cover our house. So now we have art supplies contained and the TBR contained.
Corinne
Wow, that's awesome. That's a great butter.
Virginia
I think Kim really is onto something and we should all be getting into the TBR cart game.
Corinne
I love that.
Virginia
All right, I think we did an episode. Thank you so much for listening to Burnt Toast.
Corinne
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I (Corinne) just want everyone to know that it was absolutely clean and fine and safe.
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