Flattening Orgs: Builders, Small Teams, No PMs

Julie Zhuo is the former VP and Head of Design at Facebook (now Meta), author of the bestselling book The Making of a Manager, and co-founder of Sundial, an AI-powered data analysis company. Also, my first-ever podcast guest over 3 years ago!

In our conversation, we discuss:

1. The three core manager skills that translate directly to managing AI agents

2. How her team uses AI to learn new skills 10x faster

3. The “diagnose with data, treat with design” framework for balancing gut and data

4. Why hypergrowth AI companies have terrible data infrastructure (and why it doesn’t matter)

5. How to give feedback that actually lands—including Julie’s exact script for difficult conversations

6. What Julie’s teaching her kids about an AI future (hint: it’s not coding or STEM)

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Brought to you by:

Mercury — The art of simplified finances

DX — The developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers

PostHog—How developers build successful products

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Transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/from-managing-people-to-managing-ai-julie-zhuo

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My biggest takeaways (for paid newsletter subscribers): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/i/172723725/my-biggest-takeaways-from-this-conversation

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Where to find Julie Zhuo:

• X: https://x.com/joulee

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/julie-zhuo/

• Website: https://www.juliezhuo.com/

• Newsletter: https://lg.substack.com/

• Sundial: https://sundial.so/

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Where to find Lenny:

• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com

• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/

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In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Welcome back, Julie!

(05:18) The success of The Making of a Manager

(08:41) Why AI will make everyone a manager

(11:38) The future of management roles

(14:00) Empowering teams with AI

(21:30) Specific roles being accelerated by AI

(26:53) Data analysis in AI companies

(32:02) The role of data in design

(37:21) The evolving role of managers in the AI era

(40:22) Embracing change and uncertainty

(42:14) Timeless lessons for managers

(49:03) Balancing strengths and weaknesses

(57:49) Building a feedback culture

(01:05:33) Creating win-win situations

(01:09:27) Being aware of your own energy and conviction

(01:12:12) Navigating disagreements with higher-ups

(01:15:57) AI corner

(01:20:08) Contrarian corner

(01:23:14) Lightning round and final thoughts

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Referenced:

• Julie Zhuo on accelerating your career, impostor syndrome, writing, building product sense, using intuition vs. data, hiring designers, and moving into management: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/episode-2-julie-zhuo

• Waymo: https://waymo.com/

• How we restructured Airtable’s entire org for AI | Howie Liu (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-we-restructured-airtables-entire-org-for-ai

• Cursor: https://cursor.com/

• The rise of Cursor: The $300M ARR AI tool that engineers can’t stop using | Michael Truell (co-founder and CEO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-rise-of-cursor-michael-truell

• Inside ChatGPT: The fastest growing product in history | Nick Turley (Head of ChatGPT at OpenAI): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-chatgpt-nick-turley

• Behind the founder: Marc Benioff: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/behind-the-founder-marc-benioff

• OpenAI’s CPO on how AI changes must-have skills, moats, coding, startup playbooks, more | Kevin Weil (CPO at OpenAI, ex-Instagram, Twitter): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/kevin-weil-open-ai

• Anthropic’s CPO on what comes next | Mike Krieger (co-founder of Instagram): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/anthropics-cpo-heres-what-comes-next

• The Magic Loop: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-magic-loop

• Dunning-Kruger effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

• Eric Antonow on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonow/

• Methaphone: https://methaphone.com/

• Replit: https://replit.com/

• “Baby” by Justin Bieber on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/track/6epn3r7S14KUqlReYr77hA

• Kingdom Rush: https://www.kingdomrush.com/

• Dr. Becky on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drbeckyatgoodinside

• Emily Oster on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@profemilyoster

• La La Land on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80095365

• Granola: https://www.granola.ai/

• Matic robots: https://maticrobots.com/

• Limitless pendant: https://www.limitless.ai/

• How I AI: https://www.youtube.com/@howiaipodcast

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Recommended books:

• The Making of a Manager: What to Do when Everyone Looks to You: https://www.amazon.com/Making-Manager-What-Everyone-Looks/dp/0525540423

• High Output Management: https://www.amazon.com/High-Output-Management-Andrew-Grove/dp/0679762884/

• Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values: https://www.amazon.com/Zen-Art-Motorcycle-Maintenance-Inquiry/dp/0061673730

• Conscious Business: How to Build Value Through Values: https://www.amazon.com/Conscious-Business-Build-through-Values/dp/1622032020

• Good Inside: A Practical Guide to Resilient Parenting Prioritizing Connection Over Correction: https://www.amazon.com/Good-Inside-Guide-Becoming-Parent/dp/0063159481/

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Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.