At 19 years old, you get exposed to Jerry Coase, the raft of the Medusa. You're like, this is something that has changed your profoundly. And then next decade, 15 years or so, you're like, what would it be like to actually be a working artist can actually do this as the creator myself? I was making art and selling it and showing it in Chicago in the late 70s. So that meant it was in a time when there was no money and no art world.

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