One of the things they're going to be discussing Fraser is Italy's deal with Albania. And now Starmer has said that he's open to sending asylum seekers to another country, but is this just Rwanda by another name?

No, it's not because Rwanda would take all illegally arrived asylum seekers, whether they had a valid case for asylum or not. So it's I think, by the way, that I think European leaders will have to come up with something like this. And Maloney has been really trying her best to show that she can break the bureaucratic deadlock here. And we've also had one of Germany's immigration advisors recently saying that he would want to maybe pick up some of the empty spaces that Britain isn't gonna be using in Rwanda, but all of these guys come up against ECHR and the legal technicalities. Nobody's worked out how you managed to break the legal logjam. And in my opinion, you're going to have to, the whole architecture's going to have to be redrawn. You're going to get rid of the, or update the UN Refugee Convention of 1951. You're going to have to come up with a new sort of Western understanding that we can no longer manage today's demographic pressures on rules that were designed to avoid a repeat of the 1930s. So until that is done, I think Britain could, I think, could lead the way on this. It might be, it might end up being Germany, because it's in such crisis right now. And it's just closing its borders recently, we've heard that rather is inspecting its borders, shall we say, that that does takes the lead on that. But I think because of the way that European law is currently constituted, I think it would have to be a lot wider agreement from all the European leaders. I mean to say look we need a legal architecture that allows us to discharge a moral obligation to the world's displaced and the world's poor, while keeping our own borders intact and keeps public consent for asylum. Because when you start seeing migrant crime of the level we're seeing in Germany now, that's when public consent starts to be tested and deeply unpleasant political consequences start to arrive.

Thank you, Fraser. Thank you, Katie. And thank you very much for listening.