I sat down with Jay Heinrichs, best-selling author of Thank You for Arguing, to explore the lost art of rhetoric and why Americans should relearn these skills. Most of us have forgotten how to persuade one another, and in an algorithmically optimized social media era, we’re increasingly vulnerable to constant manipulation. We dig into how, from Gavin Newsom to Donald Trump, our politicians use rhetorical tactics to greater and lesser effect. The ancient Greeks treated argument as a civic virtue—a tool for building relationships and solving problems. In the modern era, where political tribes talk past each other and rely on logical fallacies, elevating our public discourse is long overdue.

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Learn more about Jay’s work: https://www.jayheinrichs.com/

Read Jay’s work on Substack: https://substack.com/@jayheinrichs?utm_campaign=profile&utm_medium=profile-page

Purchase a copy of Jay’s latest book: https://a.co/d/5BV8IEF

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Outline:

[0:00] What is “rhetoric” and why did we forget it?

[8:17] The collapse and rebirth of public debate

[17:28] Inoculate your kids against manipulation

[24:59] Disinterest vs “lived experience” in debate

[34:51] Arguing about the past, present, and future

[42:51] How to apply these tactics in a job interview

[50:01] Why we’re skeptical of slick-talkers

[59:52] Can rhetoric help rebuild institutional trust?

[1:07:02] Physical closeness, emotion, and human connection

[1:17:58] Empathy, sympathy, and manipulative rhetoric

[1:22:54] Greta Thunberg’s vs Al Gore’s climate change rhetoric

[1:32:01] How to avoid logical fallacies

[1:51:59] Why bipartisanship is so elusive today

[2:01:31] Empower your kids to speak better

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