In this episode, Anthony talks with Anand Giridharadas, journalist, and author of The Persuaders: At the Front Lines of the Fight for Hearts, Minds and Democracy. With so many factors causing divisions in our society, Anand’s book explores how America's crisis of faith in persuasion is putting democracy and the planet at risk.

Hailing from either side of the political spectrum, Anthony and Anand have a frank conversation about what we can learn from the best persuaders out there, discussing why the Right, for all its dystopia, is better at messaging right now, and stressing why clear and concise messaging could save American democracy.

Anand describes the powers of manipulation with the art of persuasion, and the danger of contempt and dismissal in politics. They unpack various characters, from AOC to Putin, and Elizabeth Warren. Anthony shares his own insights into our current political climate, and why to succeed, we must be honest, offer equal opportunities and give a little on each side.

Finally, Anand recalls his contrasting experiences as an immigrant to America and France, discussing how you can “become American," unlike anywhere else. He emphasizes why it’s one of the most radical ideas out there, yet worth defending at all costs.

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