Despite an explosion of frameworks, toolkits, and “best practices,” the success rate of organizational change hasn’t improved in over a decade. For all the decks, comms plans, and transformation initiatives being sold, most companies still find themselves stuck, repeating the same plays and hoping for different results.

This week, Rodney Evans welcomes back Michael Bungay Stanier—best-selling author, host of the new podcast Change Signal, and longtime friend of the show—who’s on a mission to cut through the noise and find what actually works. They explore why change still feels so weird, the real leverage points for shifting individual and organizational behavior, and whether it’s finally time to retire “change management” as we know it.

Get a copy of Michael's change quadrants he talks about in this episode here: Michael's quadrants.

Learn more about Michael:

Follow him on LinkedIn
Listen to his podcast, Change Signal.
Subscribe to his newsletter, The Change Signal.
Check out his website, MBS.works
See his two prior appearances on our show, BNW Ep. 19 and BNW Ep. 75.

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Mentioned references:

Jason Fox's episode: AWWTR Ep. 17
John Kotter and the 8 Steps
Depthfinding and the "Zones"
Ron Heifetz
Immunity to Change, book by Robert Kegan and Lisa Lahey
Peter Block
Winston Churchill "We Shape Our Buildings"
Maslow's hierarchy of needs
Larissa Conte: BNW Ep. 151
Katie Milkman: Change Signal Ep. 2
Caroline Webb: Change Signal Ep. 5

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro + Check-In: Do you have a non-work related goal that you’re working towards right now?

9:59 Michael’s journey to un-weird change

14:49 Michael’s individual and organizational unlocks for change

21:24 Importance of strong foundational habits to succeed in change work

25:37 Understanding of power dynamics in change work

33:27 Outdated change mindsets to let go of

38:38 Rodney and Michael’s takeaways

40:28 Wrap up: Leave us a review and share the show with your coworkers!

Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of ⁠⁠Coupe Studios⁠⁠.

Duels and Duets, Why Men and Women Talk So Differently

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